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The Ezra Klein Show

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New York Times Opinion

*** Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic. *** Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike? Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our new iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp

#310

This Conversation Made Me a Sharper Editor

In our recent series on artificial intelligence, I kept returning to a thought: This technology might be able to churn out content faster than we can, but we still need a human mind to sift through the dross and figure out what’s good. In other words, A.I. is going to turn more of us into editors. But editing is a peculiar skill. It’s hard to test for, or teach, or even describe. But it’s the crucial step in the creative process that takes work that’s decent and can turn it into something great. Adam Moss is widely known as one of the great magazine editors of his generation: He remade The New York Times Magazine in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and during his 15 years as editor in chief of New York magazine, shaped that outlet into one of the greatest print and digital publications we have. And he’s now out with a new book, “ [The Work of Art: How Something Comes From Nothing] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/669522/the-work-of-art-by-adam-moss/) .” It’s a curation of 43 conversations with artists about the marginalia, doodles, drafts and revisions that lead to great art. It’s a celebration of the hard, human work that goes into the creative act. It’s a book, really, about editing. In this conversation, we discuss what musicians, writers, visual artists, sandcastle-builders and others have in common as they create; how editing is an underappreciated and often misunderstood step in the creative process; how creativity morphs in different stages of our lives; and trusting your own “sensibility.” Mentioned: “ [A Subtlety, or the Marvelous Sugar Baby] (https://creativetime.org/projects/karawalker/) ” by Kara Walker “ [Miss Gleason] (https://www.flickr.com/photos/rocor/42481646290) ” by Amy Sillman [Ezra Klein Show episode] () with George Saunders “ [Mother and Child on Blue Mat] (https://www.cherylpope.net/mother-and-child?pgid=ldkp2bm6-bff73e8a-fc6a-4c10-99a8-2eb9867bc0d6) ” by Cheryl Pope [Ezra Klein Show episode] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/22/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-maryanne-wolf.html) with Maryanne Wolf “ [Fidenza] (https://tylerxhobbs.com/fidenza) ” by Tyler Hobbs “ [In a River] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itpa_IOuz3Y) ” by Rostam Book Recommendations: [Interviews with Francis Bacon] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9780500292532) by David Sylvester [Faux Pas] (https://www.after8books.com/faux-pas.-selected-writings-and-drawings-(expanded-edition).html) by Amy Sillman [The Sketchbooks Revealed] (https://museum.stanford.edu/about/publications/richard-diebenkorn-sketchbooks-revealed) by Richard Diebenkorn Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Rachel Baker and James Burnett. ... Read more

23 Apr 2024

53 MINS

53:55

23 Apr 2024

#309

A $1.7 Million Toilet and Liberalism's Failure to Build

There is so much we need to build right now. The housing crunch has spread across the country; by one estimate, we’re [a few million units short] (https://www.axios.com/2023/12/16/housing-market-why-homes-expensive-chart-inventory) . And we also need a huge build-out of renewable energy infrastructure — at a scale [some experts compare] (https://www.washingtonpost.com/climate-environment/interactive/2023/renewable-energy-land-use-wind-solar/) to the construction of the Interstate highway system. And yet, we’re not seeing anything close to the level of building that we need — even in the blue states and cities where housing tends to be more expensive and where politicians and voters purport to care about climate change and affordable housing. Jerusalem Demsas is a staff writer at The Atlantic who obsesses over these questions as much as I do. In this conversation, she takes me through some of her reporting on local disputes that block or hinder projects, and what they say about the issues plaguing development in the country at large. We discuss how well-intentioned policies evolved into a Kafka-esque system of legal and bureaucratic hoops and delays; how clashes over development reveal a generational split in the environmental movement; and what it would take to cut decades of red tape. Mentioned: “ [Colorado’s Ingenious Idea for Solving the Housing Crisis] (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/07/local-government-power-nimby-denver/674164/) ” by Jerusalem Demsas “ [The Culture War Tearing American Environmentalism Apart] (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/01/housing-shortage-minneapolis-environmentalism/677165/) ” by Jerusalem Demsas “ [Why America Doesn’t Build] (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/wind-farms-community-opposition/675791/) ” by Jerusalem Demsas Book Recommendations: [Don’t Blame Us] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691157238/dont-blame-us) by Lily Geismer [The Bulldozer in the Countryside] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/bulldozer-in-the-countryside/DB059EAFC1BB7E7A024372D60CA8E6C7) by Adam Rome [A Swim in a Pond in the Rain] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/609280/a-swim-in-a-pond-in-the-rain-by-george-saunders/) by George Saunders Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

16 Apr 2024

49 MINS

49:17

16 Apr 2024

#308

What if Dario Amodei Is Right About A.I.?

Back in 2018, Dario Amodei worked at OpenAI. And looking at one of its first A.I. models, he wondered: What would happen as you fed an artificial intelligence more and more data? He and his colleagues decided to study it, and they found that the A.I. didn’t just get better with more data; it got better exponentially. The curve of the A.I.’s capabilities rose slowly at first and then shot up like a hockey stick. Amodei is now the chief executive of his own A.I. company, Anthropic, which recently released Claude 3 — considered by many to be the strongest A.I. model available. And he still believes A.I. is on an exponential growth curve, following principles known as scaling laws. And he thinks we’re on the steep part of the climb right now. When I’ve talked to people who are building A.I., scenarios that feel like far-off science fiction end up on the horizon of about the next two years. So I asked Amodei on the show to share what he sees in the near future. What breakthroughs are around the corner? What worries him the most? And how are societies that struggle to adapt to change and governments that are slow to react to them supposed to prepare for the pace of change he predicts? What does that line on his graph mean for the rest of us? This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: [Sam Altman on The Ezra Klein Show] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/11/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-sam-altman.html) [Demis Hassabis on The Ezra Klein Show] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/11/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-demis-hassabis.html) [On Bullshit] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691122946/on-bullshit) by Harry G. Frankfurt “ [Measuring the Persuasiveness of Language Models] (https://www.anthropic.com/research/measuring-model-persuasiveness) ” by Anthropic Book Recommendations: [The Making of the Atomic Bomb] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Making-of-the-Atomic-Bomb/Richard-Rhodes/9781451677614) by Richard Rhodes [The Expanse] (https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/series/the-expanse/) (series) by James S.A. Corey [The Guns of August] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/180851/the-guns-of-august-by-barbara-w-tuchman/) by Barbara W. Tuchman Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

12 Apr 2024

1 HR 32 MINS

1:32:03

12 Apr 2024

#307

Will A.I. Break the Internet? Or Save It?

The internet is in decay. Do a Google search, and there are so many websites now filled with slapdash content contorted just to rank highly in the algorithm. Facebook, YouTube, X and TikTok all used to feel more fun and surprising. And all these once-great media companies have been folding or shedding staff members, unable to find a business model that works. And into this weakened internet came the flood of A.I.-generated junk. There’s been a surge of spammy news sites filled with A.I.-generated articles. TikTok videos of A.I.-generated voices reading text pulled from Reddit can be churned out in seconds. And self-published A.I.-authored books are polluting Amazon listings. According to my guest today, Nilay Patel, this isn’t just a blip, as the big platforms figure out how to manage this. He believes that A.I. content will break the internet as we know it. “When you increase the supply of stuff onto those platforms to infinity, that system breaks down completely,” Patel told me “Recommendation algorithms break down completely. Our ability to discern what is real and what is false breaks down completely. And I think, importantly, the business models of the internet break down completely.” Patel is one of the sharpest observers of the internet, and the ways technology has shaped and reshaped it. He’s a co-founder and the editor in chief of The Verge, and the host of the “ [Decoder] (https://www.theverge.com/decoder-podcast-with-nilay-patel) ” podcast. In this conversation, we talk about why platforms seem so unprepared for the storm of A.I. content; whether an internet filled with cursory A.I. content is better or worse than an internet filled with good A.I. content; and if A.I. might be a kind of cleansing fire for the internet that enables something new and better to emerge. Mentioned: [Help us win a Webby Award] (https://vote.webbyawards.com/PublicVoting#/2024/podcasts/shows/interviewtalk-show) “ [Scenes from a dying web] (https://www.platformer.news/arc-search-quora-poe-perpexity-journalism-web-future/) ” by Casey Newton “ [The Work of Art in the Age of Mechanical Reproduction] (https://web.mit.edu/allanmc/www/benjamin.pdf) ” by Walter Benjamin “ [257 CES gadgets in 3 minutes — CES 2015] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6dp7zeTExY) ” by The Verge Book Recommendations: [The Conquest of Cool] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo3618721.html) by Thomas Frank [Liar in a Crowded Theater] (https://www.press.jhu.edu/books/title/12911/liar-crowded-theater) by Jeff Kosseff [Substance] (https://www.harperacademic.com/book/9780062307989/substance/) by Peter Hook [Everything I Need I Get From You] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374539184/everythingineedigetfromyou) by Kaitlyn Tiffany [Extremely Hardcore] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741192/extremely-hardcore-by-zoe-schiffer/) by Zoe Schiffer [Beyond Measure] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324035855) by James Vincent Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Isaac Jones and Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

05 Apr 2024

1 HR 25 MINS

1:25:32

05 Apr 2024

#306

How Should I Be Using A.I. Right Now?

There’s something of a paradox that has defined my experience with artificial intelligence in this particular moment. It’s clear we’re witnessing the advent of a wildly powerful technology, one that could transform the economy and the way we think about art and creativity and the value of human work itself. At the same time, I can’t for the life of me figure out how to use it in my own day-to-day job. So I wanted to understand what I’m missing and get some tips for how I could incorporate A.I. better into my life right now. And Ethan Mollick is the perfect guide: He’s a professor at the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania who’s spent countless hours experimenting with different chatbots, noting his insights in his newsletter [One Useful Thing] (https://www.oneusefulthing.org/) and in a new book, “ [Co-Intelligence: Living and Working With A.I.] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/741805/co-intelligence-by-ethan-mollick/) ” This conversation covers the basics, including which chatbot to choose and techniques for how to get the most useful results. But the conversation goes far beyond that, too — to some of the strange, delightful and slightly unnerving ways that A.I. responds to us, and how you’ll get more out of any chatbot if you think of it as a relationship rather than a tool. Mollick says it’s helpful to understand this moment as one of co-creation, in which we all should be trying to make sense of what this technology is going to mean for us. Because it’s not as if you can call up the big A.I. companies and get the answers. “When I talk to OpenAI or Anthropic, they don’t have a hidden instruction manual,” he told me. “There is no list of how you should use this as a writer or as a marketer or as an educator. They don’t even know what the capabilities of these systems are.” Book Recommendations: [The Rise and Fall of American Growth] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691175805/the-rise-and-fall-of-american-growth) by Robert J. Gordon [The Knowledge] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/312366/the-knowledge-by-lewis-dartnell/) by Lewis Dartnell [Blindsight] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250237484/blindsight) by Peter Watts Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

02 Apr 2024

1 HR 14 MINS

1:14:30

02 Apr 2024

#305

The Rise of ‘Middle-Finger Politics’

Donald Trump can seem like a political anomaly. You sometimes hear people describe his connection with his base in quasi-mystical terms. But really, Trump is an example of an archetype — the right-wing populist showman — that recurs across time and place. There’s Jair Bolsonaro in Brazil, Boris Johnson in Britain, Javier Milei in Argentina. And there’s a long lineage of this type in the United States too. So why is there this consistent demand for this kind of political figure? And why does this set of qualities — ethnonationalist politics and an entertaining style — repeatedly appear at all? John Ganz is the writer of the newsletter [Unpopular Front] (https://www.unpopularfront.news/) and the author of the forthcoming book “ [When the Clock Broke: Con Men, Conspiracists, and How America Cracked Up in the Early 1990s] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374605445/whentheclockbroke) .” In this conversation, we discuss how figures like David Duke and Pat Buchanan were able to galvanize the fringes of the Republican Party; Trump’s specific brand of TV-ready charisma; and what liberals tend to overlook about the appeal of this populist political aesthetic. This episode contains strong language. Mentioned: “ [Right-Wing Populism] (https://www.rothbard.it/articles/right-wing-populism.pdf) ” by Murray N. Rothbard “ [The ‘wave’ of right-wing populist sentiment is a myth] (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/06/21/the-wave-of-right-wing-populist-sentiment-is-a-myth/) ” by Larry Bartels “ [How we got here] (https://www.slowboring.com/p/how-we-got-here-ce8) ” by Matthew Yglesias Book Recommendations: [What Hath God Wrought?] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/what-hath-god-wrought-9780195078947) by Daniel Walker Howe [After Nationalism] (https://www.pennpress.org/9780812251647/after-nationalism/) by Samuel Goldman [The Politics of Cultural Despair] (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520026261/the-politics-of-cultural-despair) by Fritz R. Stern Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

29 Mar 2024

1 HR 18 MINS

1:18:29

29 Mar 2024

#304

Matter of Opinion: Paul Krugman on Inflation, ‘Bad Vibes’ and 2024

We’ll be back on Friday with a new episode. In the meantime, we wanted to share one of our favorite recent episodes from our sister podcast, “ [Matter of Opinion] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/matter-of-opinion) .” Why does the economy look so good to economists but feel so bad to voters? The Nobel laureate economist Paul Krugman joins the hosts on “Matter of Opinion” to discuss why inflation, interest rates and wages aren’t in line with voters’ perception of the economy. Then, they debate with Paul how big of an influence the economy will be on the 2024 presidential election, and which of the two presumed candidates, Joe Biden and Donald Trump, it could benefit. Plus, Ross Douthat’s lessons on aging, through Michael Caine impressions. Mentioned: “ [Believing Is Seeing] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/opinion/economy-putin-tucker-carlson.html) ,” from Paul Krugman’s newsletter “ [The Age of Diminished Expectations] (https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262611343/the-age-of-diminished-expectations/) ,” by Paul Krugman “The Trip” scene: “ [This Is How Michael Caine Speaks] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFIQIpC5_wY) ” ... Read more

26 Mar 2024

36 MINS

36:24

26 Mar 2024

#303

The Deep Conflict Between Our Work and Parenting Ideals

American policy is uniquely hostile to families. Other wealthy countries guarantee paid parental leave and sick days and heavily subsidize early childhood care — to the tune of about $14,000 per year per child, on average. (The United States, by contrast, spends around [$500 per child per year] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/06/upshot/child-care-biden.html) .) So it’s no wonder our birthrate has been in decline, with many people saying they’re having fewer children than they would like. Yet if you look closer at those other wealthy countries, that story doesn’t entirely hold. Sweden, for example, has some of the most generous work-family policies in the world, and according to the most recent numbers from Our World in Data, from 2021, their fertility rate is 1.67 children per woman — [virtually identical] (https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/children-per-woman-un?tab=chart&time=1950..latest&country=USA~SWE) to ours. Caitlyn Collins is a sociology professor at Washington University in St. Louis and the author of “Making Motherhood Work: How Women Manage Careers and Caregiving.” To understand how family policies affect the experience of child-rearing, she interviewed over a hundred middle-class mothers across four countries with different parenting cultures and levels of social support for families: the United States, Sweden, Italy and Germany. And what she finds is that policies can greatly relieve parents’ stress, but cultural norms like “intensive parenting” remain consistent. In this conversation, we discuss how work-family policies in Sweden frame spending time with children as a right rather than a privilege, how these policies have transformed the gender norms around parenting, why family-friendly policies across the globe don’t increase birthrates, how cultural pressures in America to be both an ideal worker and an ideal parent often clash, why many American parents feel it’s impossible to have more than one or two children, how cultural discourse has led younger women to “dread” motherhood and more. Mentioned: “ [Parenthood and Happiness: Effects of Work-Family Reconciliation Policies in 22 OECD Countries] (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5222535/) ” by Jennifer Glass, Robin W. Simon and Matthew A. Andersson “ [Is Maternal Guilt a Cross-National Experience?] (https://www.springerprofessional.de/en/is-maternal-guilt-a-cross-national-experience/17913162) ” by Caitlyn Collins If you're interested in this topic, we also recommend checking out this series from the New York Times Opinion: “ [Would You Have Four Kids if It Meant Never Paying Taxes Again?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/opinion/fertility-rate.html) ” by Jessica Grose “ [Are Men the Overlooked Reason for the Fertility Decline?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/opinion/fertility-decline.html) ” by Jessica Grose “ [If We Want More Babies, Our ‘Profoundly Anti-Family’ System Needs an Overhaul] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/opinion/birth-rate.html) ” by Jessica Grose Book Recommendations: [Competing Devotions] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674018167) by Mary Blair-Loy [Mothering While Black] (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520300323/mothering-while-black) by Dawn Marie Dow [Hope in the Dark] (https://www.haymarketbooks.org/books/791-hope-in-the-dark) by Rebecca Solnit Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jessica Grose and Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

22 Mar 2024

1 HR 06 MINS

1:06:03

22 Mar 2024

#302

Birthrates Are Plummeting Worldwide. Why?

For a long time, the story about the world’s population was that it was growing too quickly. There were going to be too many humans, not enough resources, and that spelled disaster. But now the script has flipped. Fertility rates have declined dramatically, from about five children per woman 60 years ago to just over two today. [About two-thirds of us] (https://www.unfpa.org/swp2023/too-few) now live in a country or area where fertility rates are below replacement level. And that has set off a new round of alarm, especially in certain quarters on the right and in Silicon Valley, that we’re headed toward demographic catastrophe. But when I look at these numbers, I just find it strange. Why, as societies get richer, do their fertility rates plummet? Money makes life easier. We can give our kids better lives than our ancestors could have imagined. We don’t expect to bear the grief of burying a child. For a long time, a big, boisterous family has been associated with a joyful, fulfilled life. So why are most of us now choosing to have small ones? I invited Jennifer D. Sciubba on the show to help me puzzle this out. She’s a demographer, a political scientist and the author of “ [8 Billion and Counting: How Sex, Death and Migration Shape Our World] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324002703) .” She walks me through the population trends we’re seeing around the world, the different forces that seem to be driving them and why government policy, despite all kinds of efforts, seems incapable of getting people to have more kids.Mentioned: “ [Would You Have Four Kids if It Meant Never Paying Taxes Again?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/08/opinion/fertility-rate.html) ” by Jessica Grose “ [Are Men the Overlooked Reason for the Fertility Decline?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/02/15/opinion/fertility-decline.html) ” by Jessica Grose “ [If We Want More Babies, Our ‘Profoundly Anti-Family’ System Needs an Overhaul] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/08/opinion/birth-rate.html) ” by Jessica Grose Book Recommendations: [Extra Life] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/594501/extra-life-by-steven-johnson/) by Steven Johnson [The Bet] (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300198973/the-bet/) by Paul Sabin [Reproductive States] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/reproductive-states-9780199311088?cc=us&lang=en&) edited by Rickie Solinger and Mie Nakachi Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Jessica Grose and Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

19 Mar 2024

1 HR 00 MINS

1:00:52

19 Mar 2024

#301

What a Second Biden Term Would Look Like

President Biden gave a raucous State of the Union speech last Thursday, offering his pitch for why he should be president for a second term. It’s the clearest picture we have yet of Biden’s campaign message for 2024. But while he listed off all kinds of proposals, it’s not as easy to parse what a second Biden term might actually look like. So I sat down with my editor Aaron Retica, who had a lot of questions for me about the speech itself and what Biden would be likely to accomplish if he got another four years in the job. We discuss how [my argument for Biden to step aside] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) holds up after he gave such a deft, high-energy performance; what a second Biden administration would likely do when it comes to abortion rights and foreign policy; the issues that didn’t receive much attention in the speech but would likely play a huge role in a second Biden term; the strongest 2024 campaign message that I’ve heard so far; and whether this is a Locke election or a Hobbes election — and what that means. Book Recommendations: [Tip O'Neill and the Democratic Century] (https://www.amazon.com/Tip-Neill-Democratic-Century-Biography/dp/0316260495) by John A. Farrell [A Nation Without Borders] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/529359/a-nation-without-borders-by-steven-hahn/) by Steven Hahn [The Field of Blood] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374154776/thefieldofblood) by Joanne B. Freeman Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

12 Mar 2024

1 HR 01 MINS

1:01:16

12 Mar 2024

#300

How America’s Two Abortion Realities Are Clashing

When the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, it scrambled the landscape of abortion access in America, including in ways that one might not entirely expect. Many conservative states made the procedure essentially illegal — that part was predictable. But there’s also been this striking backlash in blue states, with many of them making historic efforts to expand abortion access, for both their residents and for women living in abortion-restricted states. And this has created all kinds of new battle lines — between states, and states and the federal government — involving travel, speech, privacy and executive power. It’s an explosion of conflicts and constitutional questions that the legal historian Mary Ziegler says has no parallel in modern times. She’s the author of six books on reproductive rights in America, including “ [Roe: The History of a National Obsession] (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300276862/roe/) ,” and the Martin Luther King Jr. professor of law at the University of California, Davis. “We’re seeing, from conservative and progressive states, moves to project power outside of their borders in ways we really haven’t seen in a really long time,” she told me. In this conversation, Ziegler explains the bifurcated abortion landscape that has emerged since the decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization overturned Roe. We discuss the different political and legal strategies conservative and progressive states are using to pursue their opposing goals; why the abortion rate has gone up, even as 14 states have implemented near-total bans on abortion; and how a second Trump administration could try to restrict access to abortion for all Americans, no matter what states they live in. Mentioned: “ [Harsh Anti-abortion Laws Are Not Empty Threats] (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/11/harsh-anti-abortion-laws-are-not-empty-threats/675928/) ” by Mary Ziegler Book Recommendations: [The Family Roe] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324036074) by Joshua Prager [Tiny You] (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520295872/tiny-you) by Jennifer L. Holland [Defenders of the Unborn] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/defenders-of-the-unborn-9780190053321?cc=us&lang=en&) by Daniel K. Williams “ [Before Roe v. Wade] (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2131505) ” by Linda Greenhouse and Reva B. Siegel Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

08 Mar 2024

57 MINS

57:37

08 Mar 2024

#299

Marilynne Robinson on Biblical Beauty, Human Evil and the Idea of Israel

Marilynne Robinson is one of the great living novelists. She has won a Pulitzer Prize and a National Humanities Medal, and Barack Obama took time out of his presidency to interview her at length. Her fiction is suffused with a sense of holiness: Mundane images like laundry drying on a line seem to be illuminated by a divine force. Whether she’s telling the story of a pastor confronting his mortality in “Gilead” or two sisters coming of age in small-town Idaho in “Housekeeping,” her novels wrestle with theological questions of what it means to be human, to see the world more deeply, to seek meaning in life. In recent years, Robinson has tightened the links between her literary pursuits and her Christianity, writing essays about Calvinism and other theological traditions. Her forthcoming work of nonfiction is “ [Reading Genesis] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374613440/readinggenesis) ,” a close reading of the first book of the Old Testament (or the Torah, as I grew up knowing it). It’s a countercultural reading in many respects — one that understands the God in Genesis as merciful rather than vengeful and humans as flawed but capable of astounding acts of grace. No matter one’s faith, Robinson unearths wisdom in this core text that applies to many questions we wrestle with today. We discuss the virtues evoked in Genesis — beauty, forgiveness and hospitality — and how to cultivate what Robinson calls “a mind that’s schooled toward good attention.” And we end on her reading of the story of Israel, which I found to be challenging, moving and evocative at a time when that nation has been front and center in the news. Book Recommendations: [Foxe’s Book of Martyrs] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Foxe_s_Book_of_Martyrs/DMc8AAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbp) by John Foxe [The Vision of Piers Plowman] (https://www.english.ox.ac.uk/ten-minute-book-club/langland-the-vision-of-piers-plowman) by William Langland [Theologia Germanica] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Theologia_Germanica/gaBJAAAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=0) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Alex Engebretson. ... Read more

05 Mar 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:18

05 Mar 2024

#298

The Wars in Ukraine and Gaza Have Changed. America’s Policy Hasn’t.

Joe Biden’s presidency has been dominated by two foreign policy crises: the wars in Ukraine and Gaza. The funding the United States has provided in those wars — billions to both Ukraine and Israel — has drawn backlash from both the right and the left. And now, as the conflicts move into new stages with no clear end game, Biden’s policies are increasingly drawing dissent from the center. Richard Haass is an icon of the U.S. foreign policy establishment. He served as the president of the Council on Foreign Relations for 20 years and currently writes the newsletter [Home & Away] (https://richardhaass.substack.com/) . He’s recently been making the case that our foreign policy is insufficiently independent — that we’ve become captured by allies that have interests that diverge from our own. His view of this moment is a signal of larger shifts that could be coming in the U.S. foreign policy consensus. In this conversation, we discuss why he thinks America’s current strategy on both Ukraine and Israel is untenable, what he thinks the north star for our strategy in both cases should be, the Republican Party’s 180-degree turn from internationalism to isolationism, what America’s biggest national security threat really is and more. Mentioned: “ [The Two-State Mirage] (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/two-state-mirage-gaza-palestinians-lynch) ” by Marc Lynch and Shibley Telhami Book Recommendations: [The World That Wasn’t] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-World-That-Wasnt/Benn-Steil/9781982127824) by Benn Steil [Sparks] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/sparks-9780197575505) by Ian Johnson [Diplomats at War] (https://www.upress.virginia.edu/title/6036/) by Charles Trueheart Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

01 Mar 2024

1 HR 03 MINS

1:03:08

01 Mar 2024

#297

Your Questions on Open Conventions, a Gaza Schism and Biden’s Chances

We received thousands of questions in response to last week’s audio essay arguing that Democrats should consider choosing a candidate at August’s D.N.C. convention. Among them: Is there any chance Joe Biden would actually step down? Would an open convention be undemocratic? Is there another candidate who can bridge the progressive and moderate divide in the party? Doesn’t polling show other candidates losing to Donald Trump by even larger margins? Would a convention process leave Democrats enough time to mount a real general election campaign? In this conversation, I’m joined by our senior editor Claire Gordon to answer these questions and many more. Mentioned: “ [Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) ” by Ezra Klein “ [Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-elaine-kamarck.html) ” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

23 Feb 2024

51 MINS

51:23

23 Feb 2024

#296

Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

Last week on the show, I [argued] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) that the Democrats should pick their nominee at the Democratic National Convention in August. It’s an idea that sounds novel but is really old-fashioned. This is how most presidential nominees have been picked in American history. All the machinery to do it is still there; we just stopped using it. But Democrats may need a Plan B this year. And the first step is recognizing they have one. Elaine Kamarck literally wrote the book on how we choose presidential candidates. It’s called “Primary Politics: Everything You Need to Know About How America Nominates Its Presidential Candidates.” She’s a senior fellow in governance studies and the founding director of the Center for Effective Public Management at the Brookings Institution. But her background here isn’t just theory. It’s practice. She has worked on four presidential campaigns and 10 nominating conventions for both Democrats and Republicans. She’s also on the convention’s rules committee and has been a superdelegate at five Democratic conventions. It’s a fascinating conversation, even if you don’t think Democrats should attempt to select their nominee at the convention. The history here is rich, and it is, if nothing else, a reminder that the way we choose candidates now is not the way we have always done it and not the way we must always do it. Book Recommendations: [All the King’s Men] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/All_the_King_s_Men/prTKs7YY11EC?hl=en) by Robert Penn Warren [The Making of the President 1960] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-making-of-the-president-1960-theodore-h-white?variant=32207509979170) by Theodore H. White [Quiet Revolution] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/abs/quiet-revolution-the-struggle-for-the-democratic-party-and-the-shaping-of-postreform-politics-by-byron-e-shafer-new-york-russell-sage-foundation-1983-pp-ix-628-2995/69A496A5C96F738CC0228F70CC400375) by Byron E. Shafer Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

21 Feb 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:53

21 Feb 2024

#295

Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden

Biden is faltering and Democrats have no plan B. There is another path to winning in 2024 — and I think they should take it. But it would require them to embrace an old-fashioned approach to winning a campaign. Mentioned: [The Lincoln Miracle] (https://groveatlantic.com/book/the-lincoln-miracle/) by Edward Achorn If you have a question for the AMA, you can call 212-556-7300 and leave a voice message or email [ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com] (mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com) with the subject line, “2024 AMA." You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This audio essay for “The Ezra Klein Show” was fact-checked by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

16 Feb 2024

25 MINS

25:12

16 Feb 2024

#294

Best Of: Status Games, Polyamory and the Merits of Meritocracy

For years, Agnes Callard has been on a mission to take ethical philosophy out of the ivory tower. She examines everyday human experiences — jockeying for status, navigating jealousy, marriage — with dazzling detail, publishing regularly in mainstream publications. And she tries to live by her philosophy, too, even if it violates social conventions, as many discovered when The New Yorker published a provocative [profile of Callard] (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2023/03/13/agnes-callard-profile-marriage-philosophy) last year. We recorded this conversation in May 2021, before the New Yorker article drew attention to the details of her home life. (She lives with both her husband and her ex-husband.) But after our episode with Rhaina Cohen about imagining relationships more expansively, we thought it would be interesting to revisit Callard, who has spent so much time dissecting the dynamics and ethics of different relationships and their possibilities. Mentioned: “ [Who Wants to Play the Status Game] (https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/who-wants-to-play-the-status-game-agnes-callard/) ?” by Agnes Callard, The Point “ [Against Advice] (https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/against-advice-agnes-callard/) ,” by Agnes Callard, The Point “ [The Other Woman] (https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/the-other-woman/) ,” by Agnes Callard, The Point “ [Parenting and Panic] (https://thepointmag.com/examined-life/parenting-and-panic-agnes-callard/) ,” by Agnes Callard, The Point ["Aspiration"] (https://www.amazon.com/Aspiration-Agency-Becoming-Agnes-Callard/dp/0190639482) by Agnes Callard Book Recommendations: ["Tolstoy: A Russian Life"] (https://profilebooks.com/work/tolstoy/) by Rosamund Bartlett ["Pessoa: A Biography"] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9780871404718) by Richard Zenith ["Augustine of Hippo"] (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520280410/augustine-of-hippo) by Peter Brown “ [Real Death] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1UyUsz0A-A) ” by Mount Eerie Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin. ... Read more

13 Feb 2024

1 HR 22 MINS

1:22:44

13 Feb 2024

#293

Building the Palestinian State With Salam Fayyad

“If only we had a partner for peace.” That’s been the refrain in the Israel-Palestinian conflict for as long as I’ve followed it. But the truth is you don’t need just a partner — you need two partners able to deliver at the same time. So you could see it as a tragedy of history that Salam Fayyad joined the Palestinian Authority in 2002, at the height of the second intifada, just as Israeli society shifted hard to the right. A Western-educated economist, Fayyad is a technocrat at heart. And as the Palestinian Authority’s finance minister, and then as prime minister, he dedicated himself to the spadework of state-building. His theory was that instead of waiting around for the peace process to deliver Palestinian statehood, he would just build a state — institutions, infrastructure, security, sewers and all — and then statehood would follow. And by many measures, he was remarkably successful. The economy boomed, crime plummeted, and in 2011 the United Nations declared the authority ready to run an independent state. But in April 2013, Fayyad resigned. And today, the Palestinian Authority in tatters, widely seen by Palestinians as corrupt and a failure. Fayyad is now a visiting senior scholar at Princeton. And I wanted to have him on the show to talk about his time building a Palestinian state. What did he learn working with the various factions — including Hamas — in Palestinian politics? What did he learn working with Israel? How did we still end up here? And what, given all he’s seen and done, does he think should happen now? Mentioned: [Into the Breach: Salam Fayyad and Palestine] (https://successfulsocieties.princeton.edu/publications/breach-salam-fayyad-and-palestine) “ [A Plan for Peace in Gaza] (https://www.foreignaffairs.com/israel/plan-for-peace-gaza-fayyad) ” by Salam Fayyad Book Recommendations: [Why Nations Fail] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/205014/why-nations-fail-by-daron-acemoglu-and-james-a-robinson/) by Daron Acemoglu and James A. Robinson [The Arabs] (https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/eugene-rogan/the-arabs/9780465032488/?lens=basic-books) by Eugene Rogan [On The Trails of Mariam] (https://nadiaharhash.com/books/on-the-trail-of-maryam-summary/) by Nadia Harhash Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

09 Feb 2024

1 HR 05 MINS

1:05:41

09 Feb 2024

#292

What Relationships Would You Want, if You Believed They Were Possible?

Around 40 percent of people who marry eventually get a divorce. Almost half of children are born to unmarried women. The number of close friends Americans report having has been on a steep decline since the 1990s, especially among men. Millions of us are growing old alone. We are living out a radical experiment in how we live, love, parent and age — and for many, it’s failing. That’s partial context, I think, for the recent burst of interest and media coverage of polyamory. People want more love in their lives, and opening their relationships is one way to find it. A [poll] (https://today.yougov.com/society/articles/45271-how-many-americans-prefer-nonmonogamy-relationship) from last year found that one-third of Americans believe their ideal relationship would involve something other than strict monogamy. But polyamory, for all its possibilities, isn’t right for many, and it doesn’t have that much to say about parenting or aging or friendship. As radical as it may sound, it’s not nearly radical enough. It’s not just romance that could be imagined more expansively. It’s everything. “If this is such a significant relationship in my life, why is there no term for it?” wonders NPR’s Rhaina Cohen about a relationship that transcends the language we have available for friendship. Her forthcoming book, “ [The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life With Friendship at the Center] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250333025/theothersignificantothers) ,” is a window into a world of relational possibilities most of us never even imagined existed. It’s a call to open up what we can conceive of as possible. Some of these models might appeal to you. Others might not. But they all pose a question worth asking: What kinds of relationships would you want in your life, if you felt you could ask for them? Mentioned: “ [Men’s Social Circles are Shrinking] (https://www.americansurveycenter.org/why-mens-social-circles-are-shrinking/) ” by Daniel A. Cox [The Two-Parent Privilege] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/T/bo205550079.html) by Melissa S. Kearney [How Should a Person Be?] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250032447/howshouldapersonbe) by Sheila Heti Book Recommendations: [Far From the Tree] (https://parents.simonandschuster.com/9781476773063) by Andrew Solomon [We All Want Impossible Things] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/we-all-want-impossible-things-catherine-newman?variant=41012287012898) by Catherine Newman [Thy Neighbor’s Wife] (https://www.randomhouse.com/kvpa/talese/books/neighbor.html) by Gay Talese Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on X @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing from Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

06 Feb 2024

59 MINS

59:16

06 Feb 2024

#291

‘Why Haven’t the Democrats Completely Cleaned the Republicans’ Clock?’

Political analysts used to say that the Democratic Party was riding a demographic wave that would lead to an era of dominance. But that “coalition of the ascendant” never quite jelled. The party did benefit from a rise in nonwhite voters and college-educated professionals, but it has also shed voters without a college degree. All this has made the Democrats’ political math a lot more precarious. And it also poses a kind of spiritual problem for Democrats who see themselves as the party of the working class. Ruy Teixeira is one of the loudest voices calling on the Democratic Party to focus on winning these voters back. He’s a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and the politics editor of the newsletter [The Liberal Patriot] (https://www.liberalpatriot.com/) . His 2002 book, “ [The Emerging Democratic Majority] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Emerging-Democratic-Majority/John-B-Judis/9780743238557) ,” written with John B. Judis, was seen as prophetic after Barack Obama won in 2008 with the coalition he’d predicted. But he also warned in that book that Democrats needed to stop hemorrhaging white working-class voters for this majority to hold. And now Teixeira and Judis have a new book, “ [Where Have All the Democrats Gone?: The Soul of the Party in the Age of Extremes] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250877499/wherehaveallthedemocratsgone) .” In this conversation, I talk to Teixeira about how he defines the working class; the economic, social and cultural forces that he thinks have driven these voters from the Democratic Party; whether Joe Biden’s industrial and pro-worker policies could win some of these voters back, or if economic policies could reverse this trend at all; and how to think through the trade-offs of pursuing bold progressive policies that could push working-class voters even further away. Mentioned: “ [‘Compensate the Losers?’ Economic Policy and Partisan Realignment in the U.S.] (https://www.nber.org/system/files/working_papers/w31794/w31794.pdf) ” Book Recommendations: [Political Cleavages and Social Inequalities] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674248427) , edited by Amory Gethin, Clara Martínez-Toledano, and Thomas Piketty [Visions of Inequality] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674264144) by Branko Milanovic [The House of Government] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691176949/the-house-of-government) by Yuri Slezkine Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

01 Feb 2024

1 HR 09 MINS

1:09:12

01 Feb 2024

#290

‘The Strongest Democratic Party That Any of Us Have Ever Seen’

If you’re a Democrat, how worried should you be right now? It’s strangely hard to answer that question. On the one hand, polls suggest Democrats should be very worried. President Biden looks weaker than he did as a candidate in 2020, and in matchups with Donald Trump, the election looks like a coin flip. On the other hand, Democrats staved off an expected red wave in the 2022 midterm elections. Biden has a strong record to run on, and Trump has a lot more baggage than he did in 2020. So, in an effort to put all those pieces together, I had two conversations with two people who have polar opposite perspectives — starting with a more optimistic take for Democrats. Simon Rosenberg is a longtime Democratic political strategist, the author of the newsletter [Hopium Chronicles] (https://www.hopiumchronicles.com/) and one of the few people who correctly predicted the Democrats’ strong performance in 2022. He argues that the Democratic Party is in a better position now than it has been for generations. In this conversation, we talk about why he isn’t worried about Biden’s polling numbers, how anti-MAGA sentiments have become a motivating force for many voters, what he thinks about the shifts in working-class support of the Democratic Party, why there’s such a huge gap between Biden’s economic track record and how voters perceive the economy right now, how Biden’s age is affecting the campaign, whether his foreign policy might alienate young voters and more. Mentioned: [Columnist Assistant application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Opinion-Columnist-Assistant_REQ-015936-1) Book Recommendations: [A New Deal for the World] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674025363) by Elizabeth Borgwardt [On Tyranny] (https://timothysnyder.org/on-tyranny) by Timothy Snyder [The Collector] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-collector-daniel-silva?variant=41063468171298) by Daniel Silva Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

25 Jan 2024

1 HR 08 MINS

1:08:33

25 Jan 2024

#289

‘I Have No Idea How This Ends. I’ve Never Seen It So Broken.’

It’s been just over 100 days since Hamas’s attack on Israel, and the costs of the war are staggering. In polling from late fall, [64 percent] (https://www.pcpsr.org/en/node/961) of Gazans reported that a family member had been killed or injured. Nearly two million Gazans — almost the entire population — have been displaced from their homes, and analysis of satellite imagery reveals that [about half the buildings] (https://www.conflict-damage.org/) in the Gaza Strip have probably been destroyed or damaged. Israel believes that more than 100 hostages are being held captive in Gaza, and polling reveals that Hamas has gained popularity among Palestinians while support for Israel has plummeted around the world. When this war ends, will Israel really be safer? Who will govern Gaza? What will be left of Gaza? Thomas L. Friedman is a New York Times Opinion columnist and the author of “ [From Beirut to Jerusalem] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250034410/frombeiruttojerusalem) ,” among other books. He has covered the Middle East for decades and won a Pulitzer for his reporting from Israel. And so I wanted to ask him: What does he think of where Israel is now, and what does he imagine comes next? Mentioned: [Columnist Assistant application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Opinion-Columnist-Assistant_REQ-015936-1) [Thomas L. Friedman’s recent columns] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/thomas-l-friedman) “ [‘Joe Biden May Be the Last Pro-Israel Democratic’] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/25/opinion/israel-biden-tom-friedman.html) ” by Thomas L. Friedman Book Recommendations: [The Little Drummer Girl] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Little_Drummer_Girl/rO9_mU0AB3UC?hl=en) by John Le Carré [The Splendid and the Vile] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/225405/the-splendid-and-the-vile-by-erik-larson/) by Erik Larson [I’m Your Man] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/im-your-man-sylvie-simmons?variant=32974793506850) by Sylvie Simmons Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

19 Jan 2024

1 HR 08 MINS

1:08:26

19 Jan 2024

#288

A Republican Pollster on Trump’s Undimmed Appeal

The fact that Donald Trump is the front-runner for the G.O.P. nomination in 2024 has created a chasm in our politics. In the past, Democrats and Republicans at least understood why members of the other party liked their chosen candidates. Most conservatives weren’t confused why liberals liked Barack Obama, and vice versa for George W. Bush. But for a lot of Democrats, it feels impossible to imagine why anyone would cast a vote for Trump. And as a result, the two parties don’t just feel hostile toward each other; they feel increasingly unknowable. Kristen Soltis Anderson is a veteran Republican pollster, a founding partner of the opinion research firm Echelon Insights and a CNN contributor. She spends her days trying to understand the thinking of Republican voters, including hosting focus groups for New York Times Opinion. So I wanted to get her insights on why Republicans like Trump so much — even after his 2020 electoral loss, the Jan. 6 insurrection and over 90 criminal charges. What really explains Trump’s enduring appeal? Mentioned: [Researcher application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-015890-1) [Associate engineer application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Associate-Audio-Engineer_REQ-016005-1) [Gallup's Presidential Job Approval Center] (https://news.gallup.com/interactives/507569/presidential-job-approval-center.aspx) Book Recommendations: [Subtract] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250249869/subtract) by Leidy Klotz [Party of the People] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Party-of-the-People/Patrick-Ruffini/9781982198626) by Patrick Ruffini [Welcome to the O.C.] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/welcome-to-the-oc-josh-schwartzstephanie-savagealan-sepinwall?variant=41038093385762) by Josh Schwartz, Stephanie Savage and Alan Sepinwall Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

16 Jan 2024

48 MINS

48:25

16 Jan 2024

#287

Should Trump Be Barred From the Ballot?

There’s this incredible dissonance at the center of our politics right now. On the one hand, all the polling suggests that Donald Trump is about to win Iowa Republican caucuses and the New Hampshire primary. He seems overwhelmingly likely to be his party’s nominee, and so possibly our next president. On the other hand, he could be constitutionally disqualified from taking office. Colorado and Maine concluded as much, and tossed him off their ballots. And now the Supreme Court is poised to take on this unprecedented question of whether a little-known provision of the Constitution, written in the aftermath of the Civil War, can bar Trump from running and scramble the election in 2024. The Times Opinion columnist David French has been on the show before, as both a guest and a guest host, to break down the criminal cases against Trump. This time, I’ve asked David back to make his case for why Trump is constitutionally disqualified. We discuss some of the biggest objections, what the Supreme Court is likely to do, and how the possible options risk destabilizing the country in different ways. Mentioned: [Researcher application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-015890-1) [Associate engineer application] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Associate-Audio-Engineer_REQ-016005-1) “ [The Sweep and Force of Section Three] (https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4532751) ” by William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen “ [The Case for Disqualifying Trump Is Strong] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/04/opinion/the-case-for-disqualifying-trump-is-strong.html) ” by David French “ [Snakebit] (https://thedispatch.com/newsletter/boilingfrogs/snakebit/) ” by Nick Catoggio Book Recommendations: [Operation Pedestal] (https://www.harvard.com/book/operation_pedestal/) by Max Hastings [Into the Heart of Romans] (https://zondervanacademic.com/products/into-the-heart-of-romans) by N. T. Wright [Manhunt] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/manhunt-james-l-swanson) by James L. Swanson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

12 Jan 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:07

12 Jan 2024

#286

How to Discover Your Own Taste

Being on the internet just doesn’t feel as fun anymore. As more of our digital life is driven by algorithms, it’s become a lot easier to find movies or TV shows or music that fits our preferences pretty well. But it feels harder to find things that are strange and surprising — the kinds of culture that help you, as an individual, develop your own sense of taste. This can be a fuzzy thing to talk about. But Kyle Chayka, a staff writer at The New Yorker, has written a whole book on it, the forthcoming “ [Filterworld: How Algorithms Flattened Culture] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/695902/filterworld-by-kyle-chayka/) .” We talk about how today’s internet encourages everything to look more the same and is even dulling our ability to know what we like. And we discuss what we can do to strengthen our sense of personal taste in order to live a richer, more beautiful life. Mentioned: “ [Quartets: Two: II. Warmth] (https://open.spotify.com/track/71YFcWfgFA5EyroNiZQFI0?si=68c7fc9fbaf943d6) ” by Peter Gregson [Ambient 1: Music for Airports] (https://open.spotify.com/album/063f8Ej8rLVTz9KkjQKEMa?si=H3vHf-zRSGC16cXuf08aDQ) by Brian Eno Book Recommendations: “ [In Praise of Shadows] (http://pdf-objects.com/files/In-Praise-of-Shadows-Junichiro-Tanizaki.pdf) ” by Junichiro Tanizaki (essay) [Seeing Is Forgetting the Name of the Thing One Sees] (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520256095/seeing-is-forgetting-the-name-of-the-thing-one-sees) by Lawrence Weschler [The Mushroom at the End of the World] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691220550/the-mushroom-at-the-end-of-the-world) by Anna Lowenhaupt Tsing Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Carole Sabouraud. ... Read more

09 Jan 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:26

09 Jan 2024

#285

Tired? Distracted? Burned-Out? Listen to This.

I’m convinced that attention is the most important human faculty. Your life, after all, is just the sum total of the things you’ve paid attention to. And we lament our attention issues all the time: how distracted we are, how drained we feel, how hard it is to stay focused or present. And yet, while there’s no shortage of advice on how to improve our sleep hygiene, or spending, or physical fitness, there’s hardly any good information about how to build and replenish our capacity for paying attention. So for the start of the new year, I wanted to have a conversation with Gloria Mark, a professor at the University of California, Irvine, author of the book “ [Attention Span] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/attention-span-gloria-mark?variant=40346590117922) ,” and one of the few people who’s deeply studied the way our attention works, how that’s been changing, and what we can do to stop frittering our attention budgets away. Book recommendations: “ [The Challenger Launch Decision] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/C/bo22781921.html) ” by Diane Vaughan “ [The Undoing Project] (https://wwnorton.com/books/The-Undoing-Project/) ” by Michael Lewis “ [The God Equation] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/555753/the-god-equation-by-michio-kaku/) ” by Michio Kaku Mentioned: ---We’re looking for a researcher to join our team. [Learn more and apply here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-015890-1) . ---And we’re looking for an associate engineer. [Learn more and apply here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/details/Associate-Audio-Engineer_REQ-016005-1) . Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

05 Jan 2024

56 MINS

56:44

05 Jan 2024

#284

Best Of: The Most Amazing — and Dangerous — Technology in the World

“We rarely think about chips, yet they’ve created the modern world,” writes the historian Chris Miller. He’s not exaggerating. Semiconductors power everything from our phones and computers to cars, planes, advanced military equipment, and A.I. systems. Chips are the foundation of modern economic prosperity, military strength and geopolitical power. This conversation with Chris Miller, author of “ [Chip War: The Fight for the World’s Most Critical Technology,] (https://www.christophermiller.net/semiconductors-1) ” was recorded back in April. But we wanted to re-air it, because what Miller lays out in that book, and in this conversation, is essential to understanding where we are in 2023, and the faultlines that will shape the world ahead. Because semiconductors have one of the most concentrated supply chains of any technology today. One Taiwanese company, TSMC, produces around 90 percent of the most advanced chips. A single Dutch firm, ASML, produces all of the world’s EUV lithography machines, which are essential to produce leading-edge chips. The entire industry is built like this. That doesn’t just make the chip supply chain vulnerable to external shocks; it also makes it easily weaponizable by the powers that control it. In 2022, the Biden administration banned exports of advanced chips — and the equipment needed to produce those chips — to China, and then further tightened those rules this October. In August 2022, President Biden signed into law the bipartisan CHIPS and Science Act, which includes a $52 billion investment to on-shore U.S. chip manufacturing. China has invested tens of billions of dollars over the past decade to build a domestic semiconductor industry of its own. Chips have become to the geopolitics of the 21st century what oil was to the geopolitics of the 20th. In this conversation, Miller talks me through what semiconductors are, why they matter and how they are shaping everything from U.S.-China relations and the Russia-Ukraine war to the Biden policy agenda and the future of A.I. Mentioned: “ [The Problem With Everything-Bagel Liberalism] (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/02/opinion/democrats-liberalism.html) ” by Ezra Klein Book Recommendations: [The World For Sale] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-world-for-sale-9780197651537?cc=ca&lang=en&) by Javier Blas and Jack Farchy [Nexus] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674028395) by Jonathan Reed Winkler [Prestige, Manipulation and Coercion] (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300254235/prestige-manipulation-and-coercion/) by Joseph Torigian Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Emefa Agawu, Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Pat McCusker and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

26 Dec 2023

58 MINS

58:28

26 Dec 2023

#283

Best Of: The ‘Quiet Catastrophe’ Brewing in Our Social Lives

The holidays are one of the most social times of the year, filled with parties and family get-togethers. Many of us see friends and loved ones who we barely — or never — saw all year. Maybe we resolve to stay in better touch in the new year. But then somehow, once again, life gets in the way. This is not an accident. More and more people are living lives that feel lonelier and more socially isolated than they want them to be. And that’s largely because of social structures we’ve chosen — wittingly or unwittingly — to build for ourselves. Sheila Liming is an associate professor of communications and creative media at Champlain College and the author of “ [Hanging Out: The Radical Power of Killing Time] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/717263/hanging-out-by-sheila-liming/) .” In the book, Liming investigates what she calls the “quiet catastrophe” brewing in our social lives: the devastating fact that we’ve grown much less likely to simply spend time together outside our partnerships, workplaces and family units. What would it look like to reconfigure our world to make social connection easier for all of us? This conversation was recorded in April 2023. But we wanted to re-air it now, at a moment when many of us are spending more time in the company of people we like and love, and remembering how good that feels (at least some of the time). If you feel motivated to have a more social life next year, hopefully this episode provides a clearer sense of the structures that might be standing in the way, what it would look like to knock a couple down, and what you could build instead. Mentioned: “ [You’d Be Happier Living Closer to Friends. Why Don’t You?] (https://annehelen.substack.com/p/youd-be-happier-living-closer-to) ” by Anne Helen Petersen “ [The Nuclear Family Was a Mistake] (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/03/the-nuclear-family-was-a-mistake/605536/) ” by David Brooks [Full Surrogacy Now] (https://www.versobooks.com/products/711-full-surrogacy-now) by Sophie Lewis [Regarding the Pain of Others] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780312422196/regardingthepainofothers) by Susan Sontag [Letters from Tove] (https://www.upress.umn.edu/book-division/books/letters-from-tove) by Tove Jansson Book Recommendations: [Black Paper] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/B/bo119247871.html) by Teju Cole [On the Inconvenience of Other People] (https://www.dukeupress.edu/on-the-inconvenience-of-other-people) by Lauren Berlant [The Hare] (https://twodollarradio.com/products/hare) by Melanie Finn Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, with Jeff Geld, Rogé Karma and Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Jeff Geld. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

22 Dec 2023

1 HR 14 MINS

1:14:35

22 Dec 2023

#282

How the Israel-Gaza Conversations Have Shaped My Thinking

It’s become something of a tradition on “The Ezra Klein Show” to end the year with an “Ask Me Anything” episode. So as 2023 comes to a close, I sat down with our new senior editor, Claire Gordon, to answer listeners’ questions about everything from the Israel-Hamas war to my thoughts on parenting. We discuss whether the war in Gaza has affected my relationships with family members and friends; what I think about the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement; whether the Democrats should have voted to keep Kevin McCarthy as House speaker; how worried I am about a Trump victory in 2024; whether A.I. can really replace human friendships; how struggling in school as a kid shaped my politics as an adult; and much more. Mentioned: ---We’re looking for a researcher to join our team. [Learn more and apply here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/NYT/job/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-015890-1) . Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Kristin Lin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

19 Dec 2023

56 MINS

56:13

19 Dec 2023

#281

India Is Transforming. But Into What?

India is known as a country of paradoxes, and a new one has recently emerged. At the same time that the country is poised to become a major global player — with a booming economy and a population that recently surpassed China’s — its democracy is showing signs of decay. Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his administration have silenced critics and independent institutions. India’s social media discourse has turned increasingly right wing and hostile to Muslims. And Canada and the United States have accused Indian government officials of involvement in assassination plots against Sikh activists. Pratap Bhanu Mehta is an honorary senior fellow at the Center for Policy Research, New Delhi; a professor at Princeton University; and an editor of “ [The Oxford Handbook to the Indian Constitution] (https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/42606) .” In this conversation, he walks our guest host Lydia Polgreen through India’s rising illiberalism. “The signs for Indian democracy are looking very ominous,” he says. They discuss the paradox between India’s flourishing economy and culture and signs of weakening democracy, especially at a moment when many Western countries are cheering a rising India as a democratic counterweight to China. They also talk about what makes Modi such a remarkable and effective political leader and what the United States and other countries could or should do in response to a more assertive India that is shattering norms at home. Mentioned: [The Discovery of India] (https://www.penguin.co.in/book/the-discovery-of-india/) by Jawaharlal Nehru Book Recommendations: [The India Trilogy] (https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/v-s-naipaul/the-indian-trilogy/9781509852383) by V.S. Naipaul [India in Asian Geopolitics] (https://www.brookings.edu/books/india-and-asian-geopolitics/) by Shivshankar Menon [Dreamers] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674988170) by Snigdha Poonam Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Emefa Agawu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

12 Dec 2023

1 HR 00 MINS

1:00:57

12 Dec 2023

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India Is Transforming. But Into What?