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The Ezra Klein Show

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New York Times Opinion

Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike? Listen to this podcast in New York Times Audio, our iOS app for news subscribers. Download now at nytimes.com/audioapp

#333

This Is How Democrats Win in Wisconsin

The Democratic Party’s rallying around Kamala Harris — the speed of it, the intensity, the joyfulness, the memes — has been head-spinning. Just a few weeks ago, she was widely seen in the party as a weak candidate and a risk to put on the top of the ticket. And while a lot of those concerns have dissipated, there’s one that still haunts a lot of Democrats: Can Harris win in Wisconsin? Democrats are still traumatized by Hillary Clinton’s loss in Wisconsin in 2016. It is a must-win state for both parties this year. And while Democrats have been on a fair winning streak in the state, they lost a Senate race there in 2022 — a race with some striking parallels to this election — which has made some Democrats uneasy. But Ben Wikler is unfazed. He’s chaired the Wisconsin Democratic Party since 2019 and knows what it takes for Democrats to win — and lose — in his state. In this conversation, he tells me what he learned from that loss two years ago, why he thinks Harris’s political profile will appeal to Wisconsin’s swing voters and how Trump’s selection of JD Vance as his running mate has changed the dynamics of the race in his state. Mentioned: “ [The Democratic Party Is Having an ‘Identity Crisis’] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/02/opinion/biden-trump-democratic-party-future.html) ” by Ezra Klein [Weekend Reading] (https://www.weekendreading.net/) by Michael Podhorzer Book Recommendations: [The Reasoning Voter] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/R/bo3636475.html) by Samuel L. Popkin [Finding Freedom] (https://www.racineheritagemuseum.org/product/finding-freedom-the-untold-story-of-joshua-glover/194) by Ruby West Jackson and Walter T. McDonald [The Princess Bride] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-princess-bride-william-goldman?variant=39973892259874) by William Goldman Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair. Mixing by Isaac Jones. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith, Kristin Lin and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

24 hrs Ago

1 HR 00 MINS

1:00:26

24 hrs Ago

#332

Are Democrats Right to Unite Around Kamala Harris?

An open convention or a coronation aren’t the only two options. Mentioned: “ [Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [What Is the Democratic Party For?] (https://open.spotify.com/episode/1d6k0dXn8EueVP2HsIM00L?si=3517a957fb9243b6) ” by The Ezra Klein Show Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at [ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com] (mailto:ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com) . You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs) . This audio essay for “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

23 Jul 2024

23 MINS

23:22

23 Jul 2024

#331

I Watched the Republican Convention. The Democrats Can Still Win.

This year’s Republican National Convention was Donald Trump’s third as the party’s nominee, but it was the first that felt like a full expression of a G.O.P. that has fully fallen in line with Trumpism. And the mood was jubilant. Speakers even made efforts to reach out to unions, Black voters and immigrants — imagining a big-tent Republican Party that could be far more formidable at the ballot box. But if the Democrats were running a strong candidate right now, no Democrat would look at that convention with fear. In this conversation, moderated by the show’s senior editor, Claire Gordon, we dissect the themes and undercurrents of the convention and what they might signal about a Republican Party in the midst of change. We discuss how the party is messaging about race, immigration and populism; what JD Vance believes and represents for the party; what all this means for a Democratic Party that is divided about President Biden’s candidacy; and more. Mentioned: “ [Bernie Sanders Wants Joe Biden to Stay in the Race] (https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/bernie-sanders-wants-joe-biden-to-stay-in-the-race) ” by Isaac Chotiner Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Mary Marge Locker, Jack McCordick and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin and Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

20 Jul 2024

49 MINS

49:29

20 Jul 2024

#330

The Trump Campaign’s Theory of Victory

The Trump campaign isn’t just expecting to win this election; it’s expecting to win it in a landslide. And top Trump campaign officials were feeling that confident even before Joe Biden’s disastrous debate performance. So what’s their strategy to achieve the blowout they’re imagining? And is their confidence justified? Tim Alberta is a staff writer at The Atlantic and the author of “ [American Carnage: On the Front Lines of the Republican Civil War and the Rise of President Trump] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/american-carnage-tim-alberta?variant=32207768485922) .” He recently spent months [profiling] (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/07/trump-campain-election-2024-susie-wiles-chris-lacivita/678806/) Trump’s campaign managers, Susie Wiles and Chris LaCivita. In this conversation, Alberta offers an inside look at the Trump campaign and their theory of victory. We discuss how the campaign has tailored its messaging to capitalize on Joe Biden’s weaknesses; LaCivita’s and Wiles’s personal backgrounds and approaches to the campaign; what Trump’s vice-presidential pick, Senator J.D. Vance, signals about Trump’s vision for his presidency; and more. Mentioned: “ [Trump Is Planning for a Landslide Win] (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2024/07/trump-campain-election-2024-susie-wiles-chris-lacivita/678806/) ” by Tim Alberta “ [How J.D. Vance Won Over Donald Trump] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/16/us/politics/trump-vance-vp-decision.html) ” by Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman Book Recommendations: [Tired of Winning] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/730629/tired-of-winning-by-jonathan-karl/) by Jonathan Karl [Kingdom of Rage] (https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/elizabeth-neumann/kingdom-of-rage/9781546002055/?lens=worthy) by Elizabeth Neumann [Romney] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Romney/McKay-Coppins/9781982196202) by McKay Coppins Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

18 Jul 2024

54 MINS

54:08

18 Jul 2024

#329

The Economic Theory Behind J.D. Vance’s Populism

When Donald Trump on Monday chose Senator J.D. Vance of Ohio as his running mate it excited populists — and unnerved some business elites. Later that evening, the president of the Teamsters, Sean O’Brien, gave a prime-time speech at the Republican National Convention. “Over the last 40 years, the Republican Party has rarely pursued strong relationships with organized labor,” O’Brien said. “There are some in the party who stand in active opposition to labor unions — this too must change,” he added, to huge applause. There’s something happening here — a real shift in the Republican Party. But at the same time, its official platform, and the conservative policy document Project 2025, is littered with the usual proposals for tax cuts, deregulation and corporate giveaways. So is this ideological battle substantive or superficial? Oren Cass served as Mitt Romney’s domestic policy director in the 2012 presidential race. But since then, Cass has had an evolution; he founded the conservative economic think tank American Compass, which has been associated with J.D. Vance and other populist-leaning Republicans, like Josh Hawley, Marco Rubio and Tom Cotton. In this conversation, we discuss what economic populism means to him, what it looks like in policy, and how powerful this faction really is in the Republican Party. Mentioned: “ [The Electric Slide] (https://americancompass.org/the-electric-slide/) ” by Oren Cass “ [This Is What Elite Failure Looks Like] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/07/06/opinion/populism-power-elites-politics.html) ” by Oren Cass “ [Budget Model: First Edition] (https://americancompass.org/budget-model-first-edition/) ” by American Compass Book Recommendations: [The Path to Power] (https://www.robertcaro.org/the-path-to-power) by Robert Caro [Project Hail Mary] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/611060/project-hail-mary-by-andy-weir/) by Andy Weir [The Green Ember] (https://sdsmith.com/the-green-ember-series/) by S.D. Smith Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Isaac Jones. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

17 Jul 2024

1 HR 16 MINS

1:16:43

17 Jul 2024

#328

The Real Danger Within the Democratic Party of a Fundamental Crack-Up

It was once a fringe opinion to say President Biden should drop his re-election bid and Democrats should embrace an open convention. That position is fringe no more. But when the conventional wisdom shifts this rapidly, there’s always the danger of overlooking its potential flaws. My colleague, the Times Opinion columnist Jamelle Bouie, has been making some of the strongest arguments against Biden dropping out and throwing the nomination contest to a brokered convention. So I invited him on the show to talk through where he and I diverge and how our thinking is changing. Book Recommendations: [Into the Bright Sunshine] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/into-the-bright-sunshine-9780197535196?cc=us&lang=en&) by Samuel G. Freedman [Wide Awake] (https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/wide-awake-9781639730650/) by Jon Grinspan [Illiberal America] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393635928) by Steven Hahn Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

09 Jul 2024

55 MINS

55:34

09 Jul 2024

#327

Is Kamala Harris Underrated?

If Joe Biden steps aside for the Democratic presidential nomination — still a very big if — the favorite to replace him is Vice President Kamala Harris. In recently leaked [post-debate polling from Open Labs] (https://puck.news/biden-plunges-in-swing-states-in-leaked-post-debate-poll/) , Harris polled better than Biden in matchups against Trump. In 2019, Dana Goodyear wrote in [The New Yorker] (https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/07/22/kamala-harris-makes-her-case) , “As a Black, female law-and-order Democrat, Harris creates a kind of cognitive dissonance.” The profile Harris inhabited then would be welcome in an election year where disorder is on voters’ minds and the Republicans are nominating a convicted felon. But Harris hasn’t inhabited that political profile for years. And since becoming Biden’s vice president the conventional wisdom on her has shifted: She’s gone from rising star — many thought her “the next Obama” — to political underachiever. So I’ve had a few questions about Harris. What accounted for the fast fall from grace after she took the vice presidency? What happened to the smart-on-crime prosecutor we once saw? What has the White House done — or not done — to build her profile? And are critics of Harris fair, or is she underrated now? I’m joined by Elaina Plott Calabro, a staff writer at The Atlantic who traveled with Harris extensively for [a major profile] (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/11/kamala-harris-vice-presidency-2024-election-biden-age/675439/) last year. I left this conversation with a very different theory of who Harris is, what her politics are and what led to the confusions of her vice presidency. Mentioned: “ [The Kamala Harris Problem] (https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2023/11/kamala-harris-vice-presidency-2024-election-biden-age/675439/) ” by Elaina Plott Calabro “ [Biden Plunges in Swing States in Leaked Post-Debate Poll] (https://puck.news/biden-plunges-in-swing-states-in-leaked-post-debate-poll/) ” by Peter Hamby [Smart on Crime] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/Smart_on_Crime/lTdcxnRTMUIC?hl=en&gbpv=1) by Kamala D. Harris, with Joan O'C. Hamilton · Book Recommendations: [Southerners] (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/483186.Southerners) by Marshall Frady [The Sheltering Sky] (https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/55501/the-sheltering-sky-by-paul-bowles/9780141187778) by Paul Bowles [The Company She Keeps] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-company-she-keeps-mary-mccarthy?variant=39937546584098) by Mary McCarthy Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Elias Isquith. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Isaac Jones and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Carole Sabouraud. ... Read more

05 Jul 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:34

05 Jul 2024

#326

How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work

After President Biden’s rough performance at the first presidential debate, the question of an open convention has roared to the front of Democratic politics. But how would an open convention work? What would be its risks? What would be its rewards? In February, after I first [made the case for an open Democratic convention] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) , I interviewed Elaine Kamarck to better understand what an open convention would look like. She literally wrote the book on how we choose presidential candidates, “ [Primary Politics: Everything You Need to Know About How America Nominates Its Presidential Candidates] (https://www.brookings.edu/books/primary-politics-4/) .” But her background here isn’t just theory. She’s worked on four presidential campaigns and on 10 nominating conventions — for both Democrats and Republicans. She’s a member of the Democratic National Committee’s Rules Committee. And her explanation of the mechanics and dynamics of open conventions was, for me, extremely helpful. It’s even more relevant now than it was then. Mentioned: [The Lincoln Miracle] (https://groveatlantic.com/book/the-lincoln-miracle/) by Ed Achorn Book Recommendations: [All the King’s Men] (https://www.google.com/books/edition/All_the_King_s_Men/prTKs7YY11EC?hl=en) by Robert Penn Warren [The Making of the President 1960] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-making-of-the-president-1960-theodore-h-white?variant=32207509979170) by Theodore H. White [Quiet Revolution] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/abs/quiet-revolution-the-struggle-for-the-democratic-party-and-the-shaping-of-postreform-politics-by-byron-e-shafer-new-york-russell-sage-foundation-1983-pp-ix-628-2995/69A496A5C96F738CC0228F70CC400375) by Byron E. Shafer Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, with Kate Sinclair and Kristin Lin. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. This conversation was recorded in February 2024. ... Read more

02 Jul 2024

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:52

02 Jul 2024

#325

What Is the Democratic Party For?

Top Democrats have closed ranks around Joe Biden since the debate. Should they? Mentioned: “ [This Isn’t All Joe Biden’s Fault] (https://nytimes.com/2024/06/30/opinion/biden-debate-convention.html) ” by Ezra Klein “ [Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-elaine-kamarck.html) ” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show [The Hollow Parties] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691248554/the-hollow-parties) by Daniel Schlozman and Sam Rosenfeld Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This audio essay was produced by Rollin Hu and Kristin Lin. Fact-Checking by Jack McCordick and Michelle Harris. Mixing by Efim Shapiro. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld, Elias Isquith and Aman Sahota. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. ... Read more

30 Jun 2024

17 MINS

17:47

30 Jun 2024

#324

After That Debate, the Risk of Biden Is Clear

I joined my Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Cottle to discuss the debate — and what Democrats might do next. Mentioned: “ [The Biden and Trump Weaknesses That Don’t Get Enough Attention] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/22/opinion/biden-trump-presidential-debate-cnn.html) ” by Ross Douthat “ [Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/opinion/ezra-klein-matthew-yglesias.html) ” with Matthew Yglesias on The Ezra Klein Show “ [Democrats Have a Better Option Than Biden] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/16/opinion/ezra-klein-biden-audio-essay.html) ” on The Ezra Klein Show “ [Here’s How an Open Democratic Convention Would Work] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/21/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-elaine-kamarck.html) ” with Elaine Kamarck on The Ezra Klein Show [Gretchen Whitmer on The Interview] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/22/magazine/gretchen-whitmer-interview.html) “ [The Republican Party’s Decay Began Long Before Trump] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/04/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-sam-rosenfeld-daniel-schlozman.html) ” with Sam Rosenfeld and Daniel Schlozman on The Ezra Klein Show Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. ... Read more

28 Jun 2024

51 MINS

51:17

28 Jun 2024

#323

Trump’s Bold Vision for America: Higher Prices!

Donald Trump has made inflation a central part of his campaign message. At his rallies, he rails against “the Biden inflation tax” and “crooked Joe’s inflation nightmare,” and promises that in a second Trump term, “inflation will be in full retreat.” But if you look at Trump’s actual policies, that wouldn’t be the case at all. Trump has a bold, ambitious agenda to make prices much, much higher. He’s proposing a 10 percent tariff on imported goods, and a 60 percent tariff on products from China. He wants to deport huge numbers of immigrants. And he’s made it clear that he’d like to replace the Federal Reserve chair with someone more willing to take orders from him. It’s almost unimaginable to me that you would run on this agenda at a time when Americans are so mad about high prices. But I don’t think people really know that’s what Trump is vowing to do. So to drill into the weeds of Trump’s plans, I decided to call up an old friend. Matt Yglesias is a Bloomberg Opinion columnist and the author of the [Slow Boring] (https://www.slowboring.com/) newsletter, where he’s been writing a lot about Trump’s proposals. We also used to host a policy podcast together, “The Weeds.” In this conversation, we discuss what would happen to the economy, especially in terms of inflation, if Trump actually did what he says he wants to do; what we can learn from how Trump managed the economy in his first term; and why more people aren’t sounding the alarm. Mentioned: “ [Trump’s new economic plan is terrible] (https://www.slowboring.com/p/trumps-new-economic-plan-is-terrible) ” by Matthew Yglesias “ [Never mind: Wall Street titans shake off qualms and embrace Trump] (https://www.politico.com/news/2024/06/10/billionaires-learned-to-stop-worrying-and-love-trump-00162219) ” by Sam Sutton “ [How Far Trump Would Go] (https://time.com/6972021/donald-trump-2024-election-interview/) ” by Eric Cortellessa Book Recommendations: [Take Back the Game] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/653840/take-back-the-game-by-linda-flanagan/) by Linda Flanagan [1177 B.C.] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691208015/1177-bc) by Eric H. Cline [The Rise of the G.I. Army, 1940-1941] (https://groveatlantic.com/book/the-rise-of-the-gi-army-1940-1941/) by Paul Dickson Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Mixing by Isaac Jones, with Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero, Adam Posen and Michael Strain. ... Read more

21 Jun 2024

1 HR 32 MINS

1:32:09

21 Jun 2024

#322

The Biggest Political Divide Is Not Left vs. Right

The biggest divide in our politics isn’t between Democrats and Republicans, or even left and right. It’s between people who follow politics closely, and those who pay almost no attention to it. If you’re in the former camp — and if you’re reading this, you probably are — the latter camp can seem inscrutable. These people hardly ever look at political news. They hate discussing politics. But they do care about issues and candidates, and they often vote. As the 2024 election takes shape, this bloc appears crucial to determining who wins the presidency. [An NBC News poll] (https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-election/poll-biden-trump-supporters-sharply-divided-media-consume-rcna149497) from April found that 15 percent of voters don’t follow political news, and Donald Trump was winning them by 26 points. Yanna Krupnikov studies exactly this kind of voter. She’s a professor of communication and media at the University of Michigan and an author, with John Barry Ryan, of “ [The Other Divide: Polarization and Disengagement in American Politics] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/other-divide/BAEDF5146C86E57F26696EF7AAB800FE) .” The book examines how the chasm between the deeply involved and the less involved shapes politics in America. I’ve found it to be a helpful guide for understanding one of the most crucial dynamics emerging in this year’s election: [the swing to Trump from President Biden] (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/24/upshot/trump-biden-polls-voters.html) among disengaged voters. In this conversation, we discuss how politically disengaged voters relate to politics; where they get their information about politics and how they form opinions; and whether major news events, like Trump’s recent conviction, might sway them. Mentioned: “ [The ‘Need for Chaos’ and Motivations to Share Hostile Political Rumors] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/american-political-science-review/article/need-for-chaos-and-motivations-to-share-hostile-political-rumors/7E50529B41998816383F5790B6E0545A) ” by Michael Bang Petersen, Mathias Osmundsen and Kevin Arceneaux [Hooked] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/hooked/8DDDE784046B990C05668A69E9172E3D) by Markus Prior “ [The Political Influence of Lifestyle Influencers? Examining the Relationship Between Aspirational Social Media Use and Anti-Expert Attitudes and Beliefs] (https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/20563051231211945) ” by Ariel Hasell and Sedona Chinn “ [One explanation for the 2024 election’s biggest mystery] (https://www.vox.com/politics/351563/one-explanation-for-the-2024-elections-biggest-mystery) ” by Eric Levitz Book Recommendations: [What Goes Without Saying] (https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/what-goes-without-saying/DFF1AE538BD9E193A565F0D0C470E5A8) by Taylor N. Carlson and Jaime E. Settle [Through the Grapevine] (https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/T/bo217680791.html) by Taylor N. Carlson [Sorry I’m Late, I Didn’t Want to Come] (https://www.simonandschuster.net/books/Sorry-Im-Late-I-Didnt-Want-to-Come/Jessica-Pan/9781524853983) by Jessica Pan Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) . Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Efim Shapiro and Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. Special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

18 Jun 2024

1 HR 10 MINS

1:10:07

18 Jun 2024

#321

The View From the Israeli Right

On Tuesday I got back from an eight-day trip to Israel and the West Bank. I happened to be there on the day that Benny Gantz resigned from the war cabinet and called on Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to schedule new elections, breaking the unity government that Israel had had since shortly after Oct. 7. There is no viable left wing in Israel right now. There is a coalition that Netanyahu leads stretching from right to far right and a coalition that Gantz leads stretching from center to right. In the early months of the war, Gantz appeared ascendant as support for Netanyahu cratered. But now Netanyahu’s poll numbers are ticking back up. So one thing I did in Israel was deepen my reporting on Israel’s right. And there, Amit Segal’s name kept coming up. He’s one of Israel’s most influential political analysts and the author of “ [The Story of Israeli Politics] (https://pashoshim.com/products/the-story-of-israeli-politics-amit-segal) ” is coming out in English. Segal and I talked about the political differences between Gantz and Netanyahu, the theory of security that’s emerging on the Israeli right, what happened to the Israeli left, the threat from Iran and Hezbollah and how Netanyahu is trying to use President Biden’s criticism to his political advantage. Mentioned: “ [Biden May Spur Another Netanyahu Comeback] (https://www.wsj.com/articles/biden-may-spur-another-netanyahu-comeback-d27ba3fa) ” by Amit Segal Book Recommendations: [The Years of Lyndon Johnson Series] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/YLJ/the-years-of-lyndon-johnson/) by Robert A. Caro [The World of Yesterday] (https://pushkinpress.com/book/the-world-of-yesterday/) by Stefan Zweig [The Object of Zionism] (https://spectorbooks.com/book/the-object-of-zionism-the-architecture-of-israel) by Zvi Efrat [The News from Waterloo] (https://www.faber.co.uk/product/9780571315253-the-news-from-waterloo/) by Brian Cathcart Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs. This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Claire Gordon. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our senior editor is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Elias Isquith and Kristin Lin. Original music by Isaac Jones. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The executive producer of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser. And special thanks to Sonia Herrero. ... Read more

14 Jun 2024

55 MINS

55:09

14 Jun 2024

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