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The Ezra Klein Show podcast

The Ezra Klein Show

*** Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic. *** Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike?

*** Named a best podcast of 2021 by Time, Vulture, Esquire and The Atlantic. *** Each Tuesday and Friday, Ezra Klein invites you into a conversation on something that matters. How do we address climate change if the political system fails to act? Has the logic of markets infiltrated too many aspects of our lives? What is the future of the Republican Party? What do psychedelics teach us about consciousness? What does sci-fi understand about our present that we miss? Can our food system be just to humans and animals alike?

 

#141

The Case for Prosecuting Trump

The Jan. 6 hearings have made it clear that Donald Trump led a concerted, monthslong effort to overturn a democratic election. The extensive interviews — over 1,000 — that the House select committee conducted prove that Trump was told there was no evidence of election fraud, but he pressed his anti-democratic case regardless. And it appears that the hearings may be making an impact on public opinion: An [ABC News/Ipsos survey] (https://www.ipsos.com/en-us/news-polls/americans-think-jan-6-committee-fair-are-not-following-it) released Sunday found that 58 percent of respondents believe Trump should be charged with a crime for his role in the Jan. 6 attack, up from 52 percent [in April] (https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/3475050-52-percent-say-trump-should-be-charged-for-urging-supporters-to-march-on-capitol-poll/) . But after all the evidence comes to light, will he actually face legal consequences? If the answer is no, then what might future presidents — including, perhaps, Trump himself — be emboldened to do? And what would that mean for the future of the American political system? Jamelle Bouie is a Times Opinion columnist and co-host of the podcast “ [Unclear and Present Danger] (https://jamellebouie.net/unclear-and-present-danger) .” Bouie brings a remarkable historical depth to his writing about American politics. His columns about Jan. 6 — and the troubling idiosyncrasies of Trump’s presidency before it — have shown how the former president’s illiberal actions have threatened the constitutional foundation of American government. So I asked him on the show to help me process the Jan. 6 hearings with an eye to America’s past, and also to its uncertain future. We discuss why Jan. 6 may be not just an insurrection but “a kind of revolution or, at least, the very beginning of one”; how the anti-democratic nature of the American Constitution makes our system vulnerable to demagogues like Trump; the most important takeaways from the hearings so far; what could happen in 2024 if Trump is allowed to walk free; what Trump allies are already doing to gain power over elections; why refusing to prosecute Trump would itself be a “radical act”; why Republicans have grown increasingly suspicious of — and hostile to — representative democracy; why Bouie thinks prosecuting Trump would be worth the political fallout it would cause; and more. Mentioned: “ [Trump Had a Mob. He Also Had a Plan.] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/24/opinion/jan-6-eastman-memo.html) ” by Jamelle Bouie “ [America Punishes Only a Certain Kind of Rebel] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/13/opinion/jan-6-trump-impunity.html) ” by Jamelle Bouie “ [Prosecute Trump? Put Yourself in Merrick Garland’s Shoes.] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/20/opinion/trump-merrick-garland-january-6-committee.html) ” by Jack Goldsmith Book recommendations: [Free Soil, Free Labor, Free Men ] (https://global.oup.com/ushe/product/free-soil-free-labor-free-men-9780195094978?cc=us&lang=en&) by Eric Foner [Salmon P. Chase ] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Salmon-P-Chase/Walter-Stahr/9781501199233) by Walter Stahr [What It Took to Win] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374200237/whatittooktowin) by Michael Kazin We're hiring a researcher! You can apply [here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-012727-3) or by visiting [nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; mixing and original music by Isaac Jones; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

Yesterday

1 HR 10 MINS

1:10:02

Yesterday


#140

Two Years Later, We Still Don’t Understand Long Covid. Why?

Depending on the data you look at, between 10 and 40 percent of people who get Covid will still have symptoms months later. For some, those symptoms will be modest. A cough, some fatigue. For others, they’ll be life-altering: Debilitating brain fog. Exhaustion. Cardiovascular problems. Blood clotting. This is what we call long Covid. It’s one term for a vast range of experiences, symptoms, outcomes. It’s one term that may be hiding a vast range of maladies and causes. So what do we actually know about long Covid? What don’t we know? And why don’t we know more than we do? Dr. Lekshmi Santhosh is an assistant professor at UCSF Medical Center, and the founder and medical director of UCSF’s long Covid and post-ICU clinic. Her clinic opened in May 2020 and was one of the first to focus on treating long Covid patients specifically. We discuss the wildly broad range of symptoms that can qualify as long Covid; the confusing overlaps between Covid symptoms and other diseases; whether age, race, sex and pre-existing conditions affect a person’s chances of contracting long Covid; why it’s so difficult to answer a seemingly simple question like, “How many people have gotten long Covid?”; what to make of a recent study that seemingly undermines the biological existence of long Covid; how worried we should be about correlations between Covid and medical disasters like heart attacks, strokes and abnormal blood clotting; and more. Mentioned: “ [Post–COVID Conditions Among Adult COVID-19 Survivors Aged 18–64 and ≥65 Years — United States, March 2020–November 2021] (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7121e1.htm?s_cid=mm7121e1_w#suggestedcitation) ” by Lara Bull-Otterson, Sarah Baca1, Sharon Saydah, Tegan K. Boehmer, Stacey Adjei, Simone Gray and Aaron M. Harris “ [Long COVID after breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 infection] (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-022-01840-0#ref-CR4) ” by Ziyad Al-Aly, Benjamin Bowe and Yan Xie “ [A Longitudinal Study of COVID-19 Sequelae and Immunity: Baseline Findings] (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M21-4905) ” by Michael C. Sneller, C. Jason Liang, Adriana R. Marques, et al. “ [Positive Epstein–Barr virus detection in coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) patients] (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-90351-y) ” by Ting Chen, Jiayi Song, Hongli Liu, Hongmei Zheng and Changzheng Chen “ [Risk factors and disease profile of post-vaccination SARS-CoV-2 infection in UK users of the COVID Symptom Study app] (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00460-6/fulltext) ” by Michela Antonelli, Rose S. Penfold, Jordi Merino, Carole H. Sudre, Erika Molteni, Sarah Berry, et al. “ [Understanding and Improving Recovery From COVID-19] (https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/m22-1492) ” by Aluko A. Hope “ [Markers of Immune Activation and Inflammation in Individuals With Postacute Sequelae of Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 Infection] (https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/224/11/1839/6376537?login=true) ” by Michael J. Peluso, Scott Lu, Alex F. Tang, Matthew S. Durstenfeld, et al. Book Recommendations: [In Shock] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250119216/in-shock) by Dr. Rana Awdish [Every Deep-Drawn Breath] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Every-Deep-Drawn-Breath/Wes-Ely/9781982171148) by Wes Ely [Mountains Beyond Mountains] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/92351/mountains-beyond-mountains-by-tracy-kidder/) by Tracy Kidder We're hiring a researcher! You can apply [here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-012727-3) or by visiting [nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Haylee Millikan and Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Dr. Ziyad Al-Aly and Lauren Nichols. ... Read more

21 Jun 2022

57 MINS

57:17

21 Jun 2022


#139

The End of 'The Everything Bubble'

This week, the S&P 500 entered what analysts refer to as a bear market. The index has plunged around 22 percent from its most recent peak in January. Many growth stocks and crypto assets have crashed double or triple that amount. New home sales declined 17 percent in April, causing some analysts to argue that the housing market has peaked. And, in response to rising inflation, the Federal Reserve just approved its largest interest rate increase since 1994, meaning asset prices could dip even lower. To understand what’s happening in the stock market right now, you have to understand the era that preceded it. Rana Foroohar is a columnist at The Financial Times, and the author of several books on the economy including “ [Makers and Takers] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/247738/makers-and-takers-by-rana-foroohar/) ” and “ [Don’t Be Evil] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/602099/dont-be-evil-by-rana-foroohar/) .” Her view is that a decade-plus of loose monetary policy has been the economic equivalent of a “sugar high,” which kept the prices of stocks, housing and other assets going up and up and up, even as the fundamentals of the economy have been eroding. This “everything bubble,” as she calls it, was bound to burst — and that’s exactly what she thinks is happening right now. So I wanted to have her on the show to discuss the economic choices — and lack thereof — that led to this point. We also discuss why the increasing power of the financial sector hasn’t resulted a stronger economy, whether the housing market has indeed hit its peak, the massive missed opportunity for public investment while interest rates were low, why policymakers treat asset price inflation so differently from other types of inflation, the true costs of the meat we eat and clothes we wear, why crypto represents the apotheosis of hyper-financialized capitalism, why I’m skeptical of the argument that we’re moving rapidly toward a less globalized world and more. Book recommendations: [All That She Carried] (https://www.nationalbook.org/books/all-that-she-carried-the-journey-of-ashleys-sack-a-black-family-keepsake/) by Tiya Miles [Beautiful Country] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/670389/beautiful-country-by-qian-julie-wang/) by Qian Julie Wang [The Rise and Fall of the Neoliberal Order ] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-rise-and-fall-of-the-neoliberal-order-9780197519646?cc=us&lang=en&) by Gary Gerstle We're hiring a researcher! You can apply [here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-012727-3) or by visiting [nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Andrea López Cruzado; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

17 Jun 2022

1 HR 11 MINS

1:11:53

17 Jun 2022


#138

Is Climate Change a Reason to Avoid Having Children? and Other Listener Questions Answered

It’s that time of year, when we invite listeners to send in questions, and I answer them on the air. And as usual, you delivered. I’m joined by my producer Annie Galvin, who asks me some of the most intriguing questions of the many we received: Is climate change a reason to forgo having kids? What would happen if Trump were allowed to return to Twitter, in the event of an Elon Musk acquisition? Should Biden run again in 2024? Is wokeness killing the Democratic Party? We also discuss the recent congressional hearing about U.F.O. sightings; whether it’s a good thing that so many talented young people are going to work in consulting, finance and corporate law; the worrisome anti-institutional direction of the Republican Party; why government is failing to deliver on liberals’ policies and promises — and how to start fixing that problem; whether Americans’ distrust in institutions is warranted; why I could use some recommendations for a good reading chair; and more. Mentioned: We're hiring a researcher! You can apply [here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-012727-3) or by visiting [nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News) “ [Your Kids Are Not Doomed] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/05/opinion/climate-change-should-you-have-kids.html) ” by Ezra Klein “ [Empirically Grounded Technology Forecasts and the Energy Transition] (https://www.inet.ox.ac.uk/files/energy_transition_paper-INET-working-paper.pdf) ” by Rupert Way, Matthew Ives, Penny Mealy and J. Doyne Farmer “ [Ibram X. Kendi on What Conservatives — and Liberals — Get Wrong About Antiracism] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ibram-x-kendi.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [A Different Way of Thinking About Cancel Culture] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/18/opinion/cancel-culture-social-media.html) ” by Ezra Klein [Public Citizens] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393634044) by Paul Sabin “ [This Is Why Your Holiday Travel Is Awful] (https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2019/11/29/penn-station-robert-caro-073564) ” by Marc J. Dunkelman “ [Are We More Polarized? Or Just Weirder?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-tyler-cowen.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [Donald Trump Didn’t Hijack the G.O.P. He Understood It.] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/06/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-matt-continetti.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [Robert Sapolsky on the Toxic Intersection of Poverty and Stress] (https://podcasts.apple.com/ph/podcast/best-of-robert-sapolsky-on-the-toxic/id1081584611?i=1000501920086) ” by Vox Conversations Book Recommendations: [Amusing Ourselves to Death] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/297276/amusing-ourselves-to-death-by-neil-postman/) by Neil Postman [The Invention of Nature] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/227866/the-invention-of-nature-by-andrea-wulf/) by Andrea Wulf [Beautiful World, Where Are You] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374602604/beautiful-world-where-are-you) by Sally Rooney Music Recommendations: “ [Spring 1] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXXm0ppMvT0) ” by Max Richter [Christian Löffler] (http://www.christian-loeffler.net/) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

14 Jun 2022

1 HR 15 MINS

1:15:29

14 Jun 2022


#137

Socialism Is Supposed to Be a Working-Class Movement. Why Isn’t It?

American socialists today find themselves in a tenuous position. Over the past decade, the left has become a powerful force in American politics. Bernie Sanders seriously contested two presidential primaries. Democratic socialists have won local, state and congressional races. Organizations like Democratic Socialists of America and socialist publications like Jacobin have become part of the political conversation. But the progressive left’s successes have been largely concentrated in well-educated, heavily blue districts, and the movement that claims to represent the interests of workers consistently fails to make meaningful inroads with working-class voters. As a result, socialists have struggled to build broad, lasting political power at any level of government. “We might feel more confident about the prospects for the left if, rather than a momentary shift leftward in liberal economic priorities or the rhetoric of certain parts of the mainstream media, there had been deeper inroads made among workers,” writes Bhaskar Sunkara. “There have been rare exceptions, but on the whole, it would be delusional to say that our ideological left has made a decade of progress merging with a wider social base.” Sunkara is the founding editor of Jacobin and the president of The Nation, two of the leading publications on the American left. He recently published an issue of Jacobin titled “ [The Left in Purgatory] (https://jacobin.com/issue/the-left-in-purgatory) ,” which attempts to grapple with the left’s failures, interrogate its political strategies and chart a path for American socialists to win over more working-class voters. So I invited him on the show to lay out where the left is now, and where he thinks it needs to go next. We discuss whether the left learned the wrong lessons from the Sanders 2016 campaign, why working-class voters across the world have increasingly abandoned left-wing parties, the fundamental error in Sanders’s theory of the 2020 electorate, why winning over working-class voters is just as much about a candidate’s aesthetic as it is about policy, why Sunkara is pessimistic that the socialists who came after Bernie will be able to match his widespread appeal, the “end of the A.O.C. honeymoon” on the left, what a “supply-side socialism” could look like, the tension between the left’s desire for government to do big things and its skepticism of concentrated power, why it costs so much to build in America, why Sunkara is worried about America’s “thin associative democracy” and more. Mentioned: “ [Brahmin Left versus Merchant Right: Changing Political Cleavages in 21 Western Democracies, 1948-2020] (https://wid.world/document/brahmin-left-versus-merchant-right-changing-political-cleavages-in-21-western-democracies-1948-2020-world-inequality-lab-wp-2021-15/) ” by Amory Gethin, Clara Martínez-Toledano and Thomas Piketty [Infrastructure issue] (https://jacobin.com/issue/infrastructure) from Jacobin "<a>The End of the A.O.C. Honeymoon</a>" by Natalie Shure Book recommendations: [Socialism: Past and Future] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Socialism/Michael-Harrington/9781950691517) by Michael Harrington [The Age of Extremes] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/80963/the-age-of-extremes-by-eric-hobsbawm/) by Eric Hobsbawm [The South] (https://www.versobooks.com/books/3945-the-south) by Adolph L. Reed, Jr. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

10 Jun 2022

1 HR 11 MINS

1:11:13

10 Jun 2022


#136

Thomas Piketty’s Case For ‘Participatory Socialism’

The French economist Thomas Piketty is arguably the world’s greatest chronicler of economic inequality. For decades now, he has collected huge data sets documenting the share of income and wealth that has flowed to the top 1 percent. And the culmination of much of that work, his 2013 book “ [Capital in the Twenty-First Century] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674979857) ,” quickly became one of the most widely read and cited economic texts in recent history. Piketty’s new book, “ [A Brief History of Equality] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674273559) ,” is perhaps his most optimistic work. In it, he chronicles the immense social progress that the U.S. and Europe have achieved over the past few centuries in the form of rising educational attainment, life expectancy and incomes. Of course, those societies still contain huge inequalities of wealth. But in Piketty’s view, this outcome isn’t an inevitability; it’s the product of policy choices that we collectively make — and could choose to make differently. And to that end, Piketty proposes a truly radical policy agenda — a universal minimum inheritance of around $150,000 per person, worker control over the boards of corporations and “confiscatory” levels of wealth and income taxation — that he calls “participatory socialism.” So this conversation isn’t just about the current state of inequality; it’s about the kind of policies — and politics — it would take to solve that inequality. We discuss why wealth is a far more accurate indicator of social power than income, the quality of the historical data that Piketty’s work relies on, why Piketty believes the welfare state — not capitalism itself — is the most important driver of human progress, why representative democracy hasn’t led to more economic redistribution, whether equality is really the best metric to measure human progress in the first place, how Piketty would pay for his universal inheritance proposal, whether the levels of taxation he is proposing would stifle innovation and wreck the economy, why he believes it would be better for societies — and economic productivity — for workers to have a much larger say in how companies are governed, how Piketty thinks about the prospect of inflation and more. Mentioned: [The Great Leveler] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691183251/the-great-leveler) by Walter Scheidel “ [Anne Applebaum on What Liberals Misunderstand About Authoritarianism] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/17/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-anne-applebaum.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show Book Recommendations: [The Great Demarcation] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/the-great-demarcation-9780190056520?cc=us&lang=en&) by Rafe Blaufarb [The Emergence of Globalism] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691168722/the-emergence-of-globalism) by Or Rosenboim [The Origins of Totalitarianism] (https://www.amazon.com/Origins-Totalitarianism-Hannah-Arendt/dp/0156701537) by Hannah Arendt We're hiring a researcher! You can apply [here] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/News/job/New-York-NY/Researcher--The-Ezra-Klein-Show_REQ-012727-3) or by visiting [nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News] (https://nytimes.wd5.myworkdayjobs.com/News) Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

07 Jun 2022

1 HR 01 MINS

1:01:10

07 Jun 2022


#135

A Conservative's View on Democrats' Biggest Weakness

“There is definitely a contest for the future of the center right,” [says] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/opinion/anti-crt-politics.html) Reihan Salam, the president of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think tank. In his telling, one side in this contest is “deeply pessimistic about the prospect of a diversifying America, explicitly anti-urban and increasingly willing to embrace redistribution and centralized power,” more so than conservatism before Donald Trump. This populist right has received a lot of attention since Trump’s election, and we’ve done other shows to try to understand it. But Salam is advancing a very different set of ideas with a very different theory of the electorate. He’s identified what he sees as a core fissure between the progressive elites who run the Democratic Party and the working-class voters of color who make up a large part of its base — particularly on issues of race and gender. And he believes that by putting forward an “urban conservative” agenda centered on education, housing and public safety, Republicans can exploit those internal cleavages and begin to win over demographics that have been central to the Democratic coalition. So for the final episode in our “The Rising Right” series, I wanted to use Salam’s thoughts to explore this alternate path for the American right. We discuss why the Republican Party has turned against major cities, whether antiracism is the right framework for addressing racial inequality, why he believes that children of Latino and Asian immigrants could become a core G.O.P. constituency, the difference between antiracism and “antiracialism,” the tactics of the anti-critical-race-theory movement, why he thinks there’s been an “overcorrection” on the right in favor of state power and redistribution, what a supply-side conservatism beyond just tax cuts could look like, why he believes we could be entering an era of “fiscal constraints” that could radically reshape policymaking on both the left and right and more. Mentioned: “ [The Anti-C.R.T. Movement and a Vision For a New Right Wing] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/10/opinion/anti-crt-politics.html) ” by Jay Caspian Kang “ [America Needs Anti-Racialism] (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/anti-racialism-ibram-kendi-anti-racism/638433/) ” by Reihan Salam “ [Ibram X. Kendi on What Conservatives — and Liberals — Get Wrong About Antiracism] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/16/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ibram-x-kendi.html) ” by The Ezra Klein Show “ [Prison-Gang Politics] (https://www.city-journal.org/the-lefts-divisive-racialist-ideologies) ” by Christopher F. Rufo Book recommendations: [Classified] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Classified/David-E-Bernstein/9781637581735) by David E. Bernstein [Criminal (In)Justice] (https://www.centerstreet.com/titles/rafael-a-mangual/criminal-injustice/9781546001515/) by Rafael A. Mangual [Sir Vidia’s Shadow] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/sir-vidias-shadow-paul-theroux?variant=39939920822306) by Paul Theroux [The Strategy of Denial] (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300268027/the-strategy-of-denial/) by Elbridge A. Colby Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu and Mary Marge Locker; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing and engineering by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

03 Jun 2022

1 HR 16 MINS

1:16:51

03 Jun 2022


#134

Sex, Abortion and Feminism, as Seen From the Right

For decades, the conservative position on abortion has been simple: Appoint justices who will overturn Roe V. Wade. That aspiration is now likely to become reality. The question of abortion rights will re-enter the realm of electoral politics in a way it hasn’t for 50 years. And that means Republicans will need to develop a new politics of abortion — a politics that may appeal not only to their anti-abortion base but to some of the many Americans who believe Roe should stand. One place those Republicans may look for inspiration is to the work of the legal scholar Erika Bachiochi. She is a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center, director of the Wollstonecraft Project at the Abigail Adams Institute and the author of “ [The Rights of Women: Reclaiming a Lost Vision] (https://undpress.nd.edu/9780268200824/the-rights-of-women/) ,” where she argues for a “dignitarian feminism.” Bachiochi embraces women’s gains in professional and civic life but holds that techno-pharmacological birth control, the sexual revolution and the legalization of abortion have created a sexual and family culture that has ultimately been devastating to women’s well-being. In hopes of improving that status quo, Bachiochi puts forward a policy agenda that could very well become the post-Roe playbook for some Republicans: tighter abortion restrictions combined with a robust slate of family policies — some of which would be even bolder than the Biden administration’s proposals to date. Hers is not an argument I agree with, but it’s one that I imagine will become increasingly salient in a post-Roe America. In the third episode of our series “The Rising Right,” we discuss Bachiochi’s views on why the “gender revolution” has stalled; her belief that market logic has come to dominate our understandings of family, parenting, sex and feminism; her critique of modern “hookup” culture; and her pro-family economic agenda. And we debate whether it’s realistic to encourage the use of natural fertility regulation over hormonal contraception, how abortion relates to single motherhood and poverty, whether stricter abortion laws might benefit or hurt poor women, what role the law should play in teaching moral behavior, whether progressives have become too “Lockean” in their understanding of bodily autonomy, whether the sexual revolution gave people too much choice and more. Mentioned: [Defenders of the Unborn] (https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780199391646.001.0001/acprof-9780199391646) by Daniel K. Williams [Generation Unbound] (https://www.brookings.edu/book/generation-unbound/) by Isabel V. Sawhill “ [Equal Rights, Equal Wrongs] (https://go.gale.com/ps/i.do?p=AONE&u=googlescholar&id=GALE|A262787103&v=2.1&it=r&sid=AONE&asid=0596e6b2) ” by Christopher Kaczor Book recommendations: [Rights Talk] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Rights-Talk/Mary-Ann-Glendon/9780029118238) by Mary Ann Glendon [Feminism Without Illusions] (https://uncpress.org/book/9780807843727/feminism-without-illusions/) by Elizabeth Fox-Genovese [Public Man, Private Woman] (https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691024769/public-man-private-woman) by Jean Bethke Elshtain Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Kate Sinclair, Mary Marge Locker and Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing and engineering by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

31 May 2022

1 HR 25 MINS

1:25:36

31 May 2022


#133

Best Of: Nikole Hannah-Jones and Ta-Nehisi Coates on the Fight Over U.S. History

What does it mean to reckon with the violence, the tragedy, and the numerous contradictions of America?  That is the focus of this conversation – originally aired in July of 2021 – with Nikole Hannah-Jones and Ta- Nehisi Coates. On one level, the conversation is a reflection on the fights over teaching critical race theory and the 1619 Project. But it is really focused on the deeper meaning behind those skirmishes: The ongoing fight over the story we tell about America and why that fight has so gripped our national discourse. What changes when a country’s sense of its own history changes? What changes when who gets to tell that story changes? What are the stakes here, and why now? My guests for this conversation need little introduction. Nikole Hannah-Jones is an investigative journalist for the New York Times Magazine where she led the 1619 Project, and, before that, did incredible work on racial inequality in the American education system. Ta-Nehisi Coates is the author of books including “Between the World and Me” and “The Water Dancer,” essays including “The Case for Reparations,” and, for Marvel Comics, “Captain America” and “Black Panther.” Each of them has won more prestigious awards for their work than I could possibly list here, and both will be taking faculty positions at Howard University. We discuss the 1619 Project, whether patriotism can coexist with shame and regret, the political power of American exceptionalism, the cracked foundations of American democracy, how journalism is and should be taught, our relationships to Twitter, what journalists can learn from children and much more. It's a conversation that feels just as relevant today as when it first aired.  Nikole Hannah-Jones book recommendations: [Black Reconstruction in America, 1860-1880] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Black-Reconstruction-in-America-1860-1880/W-E-B-Du-Bois/9780684856575) by W.E.B Du Bois [The Warmth of Other Suns] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/190696/the-warmth-of-other-suns-by-isabel-wilkerson/) by Isabel Wilkerson Ta-Nehisi Coates book recommendations: [Postwar] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/292994/postwar-by-tony-judt/) by Tony Judt [Avengers of the New World] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674018266) by Laurent Dubois You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at [nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

27 May 2022

1 HR 17 MINS

1:17:40

27 May 2022


#132

A Conversation With Ada Limón, in Six Poems

​​“One of the biggest things about poetry is that it holds all of humanity,” the poet Ada Limón tells me. “It holds the huge and enormous and tumbling sphere of human emotions.” When the news feels sodden with violence and division, it can be hard to know where to put the difficult emotions it provokes. Poetry may seem an unlikely destination for those emotions, especially to those who don’t read it regularly. But Limón’s poems are unique for the deep attention they pay to both the world’s wounds and its redemptive beauty. In otherwise dark times, they have the power to open us up to the wonder and awe that the world still inspires. Limón’s books of poetry — like her 2018 collection, “ [The Carrying] (https://milkweed.org/book/the-carrying) ,” which won the National Book Critics Circle Award, and her 2015 collection, “ [Bright Dead Things] (https://milkweed.org/book/bright-dead-things) ” — are filled with meditations on grief and infertility, as well as striking moments of insight about friendship, lust and our fellowship with animals. Her most recent book, “ [The Hurting Kind] (https://milkweed.org/book/the-hurting-kind) ,” explores what it means to share the planet with nonhuman beings like birds and trees. Limón describes the marvels of Kentucky’s rural landscape and the dusky beauty of a New York City bar with equal care. Her writing is highly acclaimed by fellow poets and also delightfully accessible to those who have never before picked up a book of poetry. Limón is a lively reader of her own poetry, so to structure this conversation, I asked her to read a varied selection of her work. We use those readings to discuss what poetry gives us that the news doesn’t, the importance of slowing down in a world that demands speed, how the grief of infertility differs from that of losing a loved one, how to be “in community” with ancestors and animals in lonely times, why Limón loves “chatty” and humorous poems as much as serious ones, why we often have our best thoughts in cars and on planes, how Instagram and Twitter affect our relationship to the world, why Limón meditates every day, how our relationship to excitement changes as we age and more. Book Recommendations: [Stones] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/553766/stones-by-kevin-young/) by Kevin Young [Frank: Sonnets] (https://www.graywolfpress.org/books/frank-sonnets) by Diane Seuss [Postcolonial Love Poem] (https://www.graywolfpress.org/books/postcolonial-love-poem) by Natalie Diaz Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Haylee Millikan; original music by Isaac Jones and Jeff Geld; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin, Kristina Samulewski, Rebecca Elise Foote and Jahan Ramazani. ... Read more

24 May 2022

1 HR 17 MINS

1:17:09

24 May 2022


#131

The Ethics of Abortion

When Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion on Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization leaked a few weeks ago, it signaled that Roe v. Wade appears likely to be overturned in a matter of weeks. If Roe falls, questions about the right to abortion will re-enter the realm of electoral politics in a way they haven’t for 50 years. States will be solely in charge of determining whether abortion is permitted, under what conditions it should be permitted, and what the appropriate thresholds are for making those decisions. That means ordinary voters and their representatives will be forced to grapple with the moral — even metaphysical — quandaries at the heart of the abortion debate. What does it mean to belong to the human species, and when does that belonging begin? Is there a bright line at which an egg, a blastula, or a fetus attains the status of “person”? And how do we weigh the competing interests of mothers, families, and fetuses against one another? Those questions are the foundation on top of which abortion law and policy is built. Kate Greasley is a law professor at the University of Oxford in the U.K., where she studies, among other things, the legal and moral philosophy of abortion. She’s the author of “ [Arguments About Abortion: Personhood, Morality, and Law] (https://oxford.universitypressscholarship.com/view/10.1093/acprof:oso/9780198766780.001.0001/acprof-9780198766780) ,” and co-author of “ [Abortion Rights: For and Against] (https://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/philosophy/ethics/abortion-rights-and-against?format=HB&isbn=9781107170933) ” alongside Christopher Kaczor, a philosopher who opposes abortion. While Greasley ultimately believes in the right to choose, she does a remarkably comprehensive job of carefully and fairly considering all the arguments, contradictions and nuances of this issue. We discuss why both progressives and conservatives should be open to questioning their preconceptions about abortion, what the Bible does — and doesn’t — suggest about abortion, why the status of fetal life is the central question at the heart of abortion ethics, whether life begins at conception or emerges later in fetal development, how the complex, messy moral intuitions that most of us have around questions of life and death don’t lend themselves neatly to either an abortion rights or anti-abortion camp, why late-term abortions pose particularly challenging moral questions, how the pregnant person’s bodily autonomy weighs against the fetus’s and more. Mentioned: “ [Can Fetuses Feel Pain?] (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16613970/) ” by Stuart Derbyshire Book recommendations: [Beyond Roe] (https://global.oup.com/academic/product/beyond-roe-9780190904845?cc=us&lang=en&#) by David Boonin [Abortion: Three Perspectives] (https://global.oup.com/ushe/product/abortion-9780195308952?cc=us&lang=en&) by Michael Tooley, Celia Wolf-Devine, Philip E. Devine and Alison M. Jaggar [About Abortion] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674737723) by Carol Sanger Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing and engineering by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

20 May 2022

1 HR 12 MINS

1:12:20

20 May 2022


#130

Anne Applebaum on What Liberals Misunderstand About Authoritarianism

The experience of reading Hannah Arendt’s 1951 classic “ [The Origins of Totalitarianism] (https://bookshop.org/books/origins-of-totalitarianism-9780156701532/9780156701532) ” in the year 2022 is a disorienting one. Although Arendt is writing primarily about Nazi Germany and Stalinist Russia, her descriptions often capture aspects of our present moment more clearly than those of us living through it can ever hope to. Arendt writes of entire populations who “had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything was possible and that nothing was true.” She describes “the masses’ escape from reality” as “a verdict against the world in which they are forced to live and in which they cannot exist.” She points out that in societies riddled with elite hypocrisy, “it seemed revolutionary to admit cruelty, disregard of human values, and general amorality, because this at least destroyed the duplicity upon which the existing society seemed to rest.” It’s hard to read statements like these without immediately conjuring up images of Vladimir Putin’s Russia or Donald Trump’s presidency or the QAnon faithful. But that’s exactly the point: The reason Arendt is so relevant today is that her diagnosis doesn’t apply just to the Nazi or Soviet regimes she was writing about. It is more fundamentally about the characteristics of liberal societies that make them vulnerable to distinctly illiberal and authoritarian forces — weaknesses that, in many ways, have only become more pronounced in the 70 years since “The Origins of Totalitarianism” was first released. Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic and a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian. Her writing — including her most recent book, “ [Twilight of Democracy: The Seductive Lure of Authoritarianism] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/621076/twilight-of-democracy-by-anne-applebaum/) ” — is focused on the resurgence of autocratic movements and governments around the world, and why members of Western societies have abandoned liberal democratic ideals in favor of strongman leaders, conspiratorial movements and authoritarian regimes. And in the introduction she wrote to a new edition of “The Origins of Totalitarianism,” Applebaum argues that Arendt’s insights are more relevant now than ever. So this is a conversation that uses Arendt’s analysis as a window into our present. Applebaum and I discuss how “radical loneliness” lays the groundwork for authoritarianism, what Putin and Trump understand about human nature that most liberals miss, the seductive allure of groups like QAnon, the way that modern propaganda feeds off a combination of gullibility and cynicism, whether liberalism’s own logic is making societies vulnerable to totalitarian impulses, why efforts by populist politicians to upend conventional morality have held such appeal in Western liberal democracies, how the ideology of “economism” blinds Western liberals to their own societies’ deepest vulnerabilities, what liberals need to do differently to counteract the rise of global autocracy and more. Mentioned: “ [Review of Adolph Hitler’s ‘Mein Kampf’] (https://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks16/1600051h.html) ” by George Orwell Book Recommendations: [Cuba] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Cuba-(Winner-of-the-Pulitzer-Prize)/Ada-Ferrer/9781501154553) by Ada Ferrer [The Lincoln Highway] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/549384/the-lincoln-highway-by-amor-towles/) by Amor Towles [The Origins of Totalitarianism] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-origins-of-totalitarianism-hannah-arendt?variant=39936636256290) by Hannah Arendt Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu, Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

17 May 2022

1 HR 02 MINS

1:02:59

17 May 2022


#129

What Does the ‘Post-Liberal Right’ Actually Want?

“It begun to dawn on many conservatives that in spite of apparent electoral victories that have occurred regularly since the Reagan years, they have consistently lost, and lost overwhelmingly to progressive forces,” Patrick Deneen writes in a recent essay titled “ [Abandoning Defensive Crouch Conservatism] (https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/abandoning-defensive-crouch-conservatism?s=r) .” He goes on to argue that conservatives need to reject liberal values like free speech, religious liberty and pluralism, abandon their defensive posturing and use the power of the state to actively fight back against what he calls “liberal totalitarianism.” To progressive ears, these kinds of statements can be baffling; after all, Republicans currently control a majority of state legislatures, governorships and the Supreme Court, and they are poised to make gains in the midterm elections this fall. But even so, there’s a pervasive feeling among conservatives that progressives are using their unprecedented institutional power — in universities, in Hollywood, in the mainstream media, in the C-suites of tech companies — to wage war on traditional ways of life. And [many of them] (https://podcasts.apple.com/ee/podcast/top-g-o-p-pollster-on-trump-2024-qanon-what-republicans/id1548604447?i=1000514483880) have come to believe that the only viable response is to fight back against these advances at all costs. It’s impossible to understand the policies, leaders, rhetoric and tactics of the populist right without first trying to inhabit this worldview. That is why, for this second conversation in our series “The Rising Right,” I wanted to speak with Deneen. He is a professor of political science at the University of Notre Dame, and his 2018 book, “ [Why Liberalism Failed] (https://yalebooks.yale.edu/book/9780300240023/why-liberalism-failed/) ,” has become a touchstone within the conservative intelligentsia and was even fairly well received by liberals. But since then, Deneen’s writing has come to express something closer to total political war. And with three other professors, he recently started a Substack newsletter, “ [The Postliberal Order] (https://postliberalorder.substack.com/) ,” to build the kind of intellectual and political project needed to fight that war. This is a conversation about what Deneen’s “postliberal” political project looks like — and the tensions and contradictions it reveals about the modern populist right. We discuss (and debate) Deneen’s view that conservatives keep losing, why he believes the left is hostile to the family, whether America needs stricter divorce laws, what the post-liberal right would actually do with power, the virtues and vices of policy analysis, whether post-liberals have built their core arguments around an invented straw man liberalism, Joe Biden’s agenda for families and much more. Mentioned: “ [A Good That Is Common] (https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/a-good-that-is-common?s=r) ” by Patrick Deneen “ [Replace the Elite] (https://www.firstthings.com/article/2020/03/replace-the-elite) ” by Patrick Deneen “ [Abandoning Defensive Crouch Conservatism] (https://postliberalorder.substack.com/p/abandoning-defensive-crouch-conservatism?s=r) ” by Patrick Deneen Book recommendations: [The New Class War] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/607661/the-new-class-war-by-michael-lind/) by Michael Lind [Dominion] (https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/tom-holland/dominion/9780465093502/) by Tom Holland [The Art of Loading Brush] (https://www.counterpointpress.com/dd-product/the-art-of-loading-brush/) by Wendell Berry Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Rollin Hu; original music by Isaac Jones and Jeff Geld; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

13 May 2022

1 HR 37 MINS

1:37:25

13 May 2022


#128

Sway: 'Fear and Panic Are Bedfellows' in Ukraine

Today we're bringing you an episode from our friends at Sway about the war in Ukraine and the challenges of conflict-zone reporting.  Clarissa Ward has had, as she puts it, a “long and very complicated relationship” with Russia. The chief international correspondent for CNN, she has had stints in Moscow since the beginning of her career, and has struggled to get a Russian visa since she investigated the 2020 poisoning of the Russian opposition leader Aleksei Navalny. But that hasn’t stopped her from reporting on the region, and in particular on Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. Yet after months of war, it can be an uphill battle to keep the viewers’ attention on the front line. “Our job is to keep finding ways to make sure that we don’t become numb and desensitized to the horrors of war, because that is exactly how wars continue and grind on,” Ward says. In this conversation, taped last week, Kara talks to Ward about her time reporting in Ukraine, what it’s like to “let fear sit in the passenger seat” when reporting from the front and how the hangover of war can leave correspondents detached from the “bourgeois and banal” normalcy of home. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more information for all episodes at [nytimes.com/sway] (http://nytimes.com/sway) , and you can find Kara on Twitter [@karaswisher] (https://twitter.com/karaswisher) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

10 May 2022

42 MINS

42:51

10 May 2022


#127

Donald Trump Didn’t Hijack the G.O.P. He Understood It.

Right now, Republicans of all stripes — Ron DeSantis, J.D. Vance, Mike Pence, Glenn Youngkin — are trying to figure out how to channel the populist energies of Donald Trump into a winning political message. The struggle to achieve such a synthesis is the defining project on the American right today. Its outcome will determine the future of the Republican Party — and American politics. To understand what the post-Trump future of the G.O.P. will look like, it helps to have a clearer understanding of the party’s past — particularly the chapters that many conservatives prefer to forget. Traditional histories of American conservatism view Donald Trump’s election as an aberration in the lineage of the American right — an unprecedented populist rejection of the conservatism of Ronald Reagan and William F. Buckley Jr. But Matthew Continetti’s new book “ [The Right: The Hundred-Year War for American Conservatism] (https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/matthew-continetti/the-right/9781541600522/) ” flips that conventional history on its head. In Continetti’s view, the “populist” energies that Trump harnessed in 2016 aren’t anything new for the American right — they have always been central to it. The American right has always been defined by a back-and-forth struggle — and at times a synthesis — between its populist grass roots and its elites. I wanted to bring Continetti on the show because this history is crucial to understanding where the Republican Party could go next. And also because this is the first episode in a new series we are producing called “The Rising Right.” Over the next few weeks, “The Ezra Klein Show” will feature conversations with conservative writers, scholars and thinkers who are trying to harness the forces that Trump unleashed and build a superstructure of ideas, institutions and policy around them. But to see where that movement is going, you have to take seriously where it came from. Mentioned:“ [Can Reaganism Rise Again?] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/13/opinion/can-reaganism-rise-again.html) ” by Ross Douthat Book Recommendations: [Let Us Talk of Many Things] (https://www.amazon.com/Let-Talk-Many-Things-Commentary/dp/0761525513) by William F. Buckley Jr. [Making It] (https://www.nyrb.com/products/making-it?variant=30508090887) by Norman Podhoretz [The Prince of Darkness] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/122921/the-prince-of-darkness-by-robert-d-novak/) by Robert D. Novak Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris, Mary Marge Locker and Jenny Casas; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

06 May 2022

1 HR 22 MINS

1:22:39

06 May 2022


#126

The Argument: Why the G.O.P. Can't Stop Saying 'Gay'

Today we're bringing you an episode from our friends at The Argument about Florida's “Don't Say Gay” bill and the broader wave of anti-L.G.B.T.Q. legislation, spurred by the political right, that is spreading across the country. [According to the Human Rights Campaign] (https://www.hrc.org/campaigns/the-state-legislative-attack-on-lgbtq-people) , this year alone, more than 300 anti-L.G.B.T.Q. bills have been introduced in state legislatures.  Why has this issue become a major focus of the Republican Party? And how is the way society treats individuals who identify as L.G.B.T.Q. changing? Jane Coaston speaks to her Times Opinion colleagues Ross Douthat and Michelle Goldberg about these questions and brings a deeply personal perspective to the table. Mentioned: “ [How to Make Sense of the New L.G.B.T.Q. Culture War] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html) ” by Ross Douthat in The New York Times “ [Gender Unicorn] (https://transstudent.org/gender/) ” from Trans Student Educational Resources Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

03 May 2022

39 MINS

39:04

03 May 2022


#125

Elon Musk Might Break Twitter. Maybe That's a Good Thing.

If Elon Musk’s bid to purchase Twitter comes to fruition, the world’s richest person will own one of its most important communications platforms. Twitter might have a smaller user base than Facebook, Instagram and even Snapchat, but it shapes the dominant narratives in key industries like politics, media, finance and technology more than any other platform. Attention — particularly that of elite leaders in these industries — is a valuable resource, one that Twitter manages and trades in. Musk understands Twitter’s attention economy better than anyone. On numerous occasions, his tweets have sent a company’s stock or a cryptocurrency’s value skyrocketing (or plummeting). So what would it mean for Musk to own Twitter? How would that change the platform? How might he use Twitter to change, well, everything else? Felix Salmon is the chief economics correspondent at Axios, a co-host of the [Slate Money] (https://slate.com/podcasts/slate-money) podcast and someone who has spent a lot of time thinking about the economics of attention, the way modern financial markets work and how money impacts the technologies we use. We discuss Musk’s possible motivations for owning Twitter, how Musk’s distinct brand of tweeting has reaped financial windfalls, what Musk understands about finance and attention that many others don’t, why Twitter is so powerful as a storytelling machine, why journalists are turning away from it, what a decentralized Twitter might look like, how Web3 resembles the 1960s “back to the land” movement, how Musk could break Twitter — but why that might end up saving Twitter — and more. Mentioned: “ [Elon Musk Got Twitter Because He Gets Twitter] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/27/opinion/elon-musk-twitter.html) ” by Ezra Klein " [A Crypto Optimist Meets a Crypto Skeptic] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/15/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-katie-haun.html) ” on The Ezra Klein Show “ [A Viral Case Against Crypto, Explored] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/04/05/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-dan-olson.html) ” on The Ezra Klein Show “ [The Way the Senate Melted Down Over Crypto Is Very Revealing] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/12/opinion/senate-cryptocurrency.html) ” by Ezra Klein Book Recommendations: [The Bond King] (https://us.macmillan.com/books/9781250120854/thebondking) by Mary Childs [Typeset in the Future] (https://www.abramsbooks.com/product/typeset-in-the-future_9781419727146/) by Dave Addey [The Surprise of Cremona] (https://www.amazon.com/Surprise-Cremona-Womans-Adventures-Ravenna/dp/1873429657) by Edith Templeton Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Jenny Casas, Michelle Harris, Rollin Hu and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones and Carole Sabouraud; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

29 Apr 2022

1 HR 05 MINS

1:05:27

29 Apr 2022


#124

Putin May Not Like How He’s Changed Europe

Vladimir Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has transformed Europe within a matter of weeks. A continent once fractured by the refugee crisis is now taking in millions of refugees. Countries such as Germany have made considerable pledges to increase military spending. The European Union said it would cut off Russian oil and gas “well before 2030” — a once unthinkable prospect. The European project seems more confident in itself than at any other time in recent history. But some European countries are also seeing trends in the opposite direction. This month in Hungary, Prime Minister Viktor Orban’s nationalist government won re-election easily. The far-right leader Marine Le Pen lost this past weekend’s French presidential election to the incumbent, Emmanuel Macron, but secured a significant 41.5 percent of the vote, up from 33.9 percent in 2017. And nationalist movements — Brexit in Britain, the Five Star Movement in Italy and others — have become potent political forces in recent years. So what’s next for Europe? Will Putin’s invasion reinvigorate the collective European project? Or will the continent revert to its preinvasion path of fracture, division and nationalism? Ivan Krastev is the chairman of the Center for Liberal Strategies in Sofia, Bulgaria and the author of numerous books, including “ [After Europe] (https://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/15679.html) ” and, with Stephen Holmes, “ [The Light That Failed: Why the West Is Losing the Fight for Democracy] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Light-That-Failed/Stephen-Holmes/9781643133690) .” He’s also one of my favorite people to talk to on the subject of Europe, liberalism, democracy and the tensions therein. We discuss how European identity went from revolving around war to being centered on economic trade, why Europe has treated the Ukrainian refugee crisis so differently from previous refugee crises, how the West’s overly economic understanding of human motivation blinded it to Putin’s plans, what the relative success of politicians like Le Pen and Orban means for the future of Europe, how fears of demographic change can help explain phenomena as different as Putin’s invasion and Donald Trump’s election, whether Putin’s invasion can reawaken an exhausted European liberalism and much more. Mentioned: “ [The End of History?] (https://www.jstor.org/stable/24027184) ” by Francis Fukuyama [The End of History and the Last Man] (https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-End-of-History-and-the-Last-Man/Francis-Fukuyama/9780743284554) by Francis Fukuyama “ [We Are All Living in Vladimir Putin’s World Now] (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/27/opinion/putin-russia-ukraine-europe.html?referringSource=articleShare) ” by Ivan Krastev “ [The Crisis of American Power: How Europeans See Biden’s America] (https://ecfr.eu/publication/the-crisis-of-american-power-how-europeans-see-bidens-america/) ” by Ivan Krastev “ [The Power of the Past: How Nostalgia Shapes European Public Opinion] (https://www.bertelsmann-stiftung.de/fileadmin/files/BSt/Publikationen/GrauePublikationen/eupinions_Nostalgia.pdf) ” by Catherine E. de Vries and Isabell Hoffmann from Bertelsmann Stiftung Book Recommendations: [Free] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9780393867732) by Lea Ypi [The Age of Unpeace] (https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/144/1443237/the-age-of-unpeace/9781787634657.html) by Mark Leonard [Time Shelter] (https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324090953) by Georgi Gospodinov Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

26 Apr 2022

1 HR 09 MINS

1:09:38

26 Apr 2022


#123

Emily St. John Mandel on Time Travel, Parenting and the Apocalypse

“ [Station Eleven] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/239452/station-eleven-television-tie-in-by-emily-st-john-mandel/) ” by Emily St. John Mandel was published in 2014. That book imagined the world after a pandemic had wiped out, well, almost everyone. It’s a gorgeous novel with a particular emotional power: it helps you grieve a life you still have. But then came a real pandemic, not as lethal as the one Mandel imagined, but a shock nonetheless. And “Station Eleven” — already a beloved international best seller — found a second life. Mandel became known as a pandemic prophet. “Station Eleven” became an acclaimed HBO Max series. “ [Sea of Tranquility] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/692735/sea-of-tranquility-by-emily-st-john-mandel/) ” by Mandel is written from within the hothouse of that strange kind of celebrity. The author put a version of herself in there, struggling with fame and parenthood and quarantine and too much travel. But there are also moon colonies, and time travel, and hints that we live in a computer simulation. If “Station Eleven” explores how calamity could change the world, “Sea of Tranquility” wonders what happens if it doesn’t. This conversation begins in the weirdness of the simulation hypothesis, but winds its way to much more fundamental questions of being human right now. There is so much we could lose, so much we already have lost; why is it so hard to live with the gratitude our lives should inspire, or the seriousness the moment demands? Mentioned: “ [The Power of Patience] (https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2013/11/the-power-of-patience) ” by Jennifer L. Roberts [This Time Tomorrow] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/594998/this-time-tomorrow-by-emma-straub/) by Emma Straub “ [Are We Living in a Computer Simulation?] (https://academic.oup.com/pq/article-abstract/53/211/243/1610975?login=false) ” by Nick Bostrom Book recommendations: [Scary Monsters] (https://books.catapult.co/books/scary-monsters/) by Michelle de Kretser [Ill Will] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/26150/ill-will-by-dan-chaon/) by Dan Chaon [Suite Française] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/120697/suite-francaise-by-irene-nemirovsky/) by Irène Némirovsky Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

22 Apr 2022

59 MINS

59:36

22 Apr 2022


#122

Can Democrats Turn Their 2022 Around?

With the midterms just over six months away, the electoral prospects for Democrats are looking bleak. President Biden’s approval rating is [at 42 percent] (https://news.gallup.com/poll/329384/presidential-approval-ratings-joe-biden.aspx) , around where Donald Trump’s was at this point in his presidency. [Recent polls] (https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/generic-ballot/) asking whether Americans want Republicans or Democrats in Congress found that Republicans are leading by about 2 percentage points. And with inflation spiking to its highest point in decades, Covid cases rising and Russia’s invasion of Ukraine continuing to send economic and humanitarian shock waves across the globe, things don’t look as if they are going to get better anytime soon. What will it take for Democrats to turn things around? What fights should they be picking with Republicans, and how should they be making the case that they deserve another chance at leading the country? Sean McElwee is a co-founder and the executive director of [Data for Progress] (https://www.dataforprogress.org/) , a research organization that gathers polling data to strategize on behalf of progressive causes and policies. Anat Shenker-Osorio is a principal at [ASO Communications] (https://www.asocommunications.com/) , a political communications firm that conducts analytic and empirical research to help progressive political campaigns. She also hosts the “ [Words to Win By] (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/words-to-win-by/id1477929959) ” podcast. McElwee and Shenker-Osorio have deeply influenced my thinking on how words work in American politics: how campaigns can meaningfully address what voters want and how they can persuade swing voters and motivate the party’s base. In this conversation, McElwee and Shenker-Osorio help me understand where Democrats stand with the electorate and what, if anything, they can do to improve their chances in 2022. We discuss why Biden’s approval rating is so low, given the popularity of his policies, why governing parties so often lose midterm elections, whether Democrats should focus more on persuading swing voters or on mobilizing their base, why it’s important for Democrats to get their base to sing from the same songbook, what Democrats can learn from Trump about winning voters’ attention, how Republicans are running politics on easy mode, whether it was wise politically for Biden to double down on the message to fund the police, what political fights Democrats should pick in the lead-up to the midterms, how the party should handle spiking inflation and more. Mentioned: " [Democrats, Here's How to Lose in 2022. And Deserve It.] (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/21/opinion/biden-inauguration-democrats.html) " by Ezra Klein Book recommendations: Anat Shenker-Osorio [A Theory of System Justification] (https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674244658) by John T. Jost [Memorial] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/621176/memorial-by-bryan-washington/) by Bryan Washington [These Precious Days] (https://www.harpercollins.com/products/these-precious-days-ann-patchett?variant=33090914385954) by Ann Patchett Sean McElwee [The Course] (https://www.amazon.com/Course-Serious-Strategy-Smart-Players/dp/1511768320) by Ed Miller [The Precipice] (http://www.tobyord.com/book) by Toby Ord [The Climate War] (https://www.hachettebooks.com/titles/eric-pooley/the-climate-war/9781401395988/) by Eric Pooley Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at [ nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast] (https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast) , and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at [ https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs] (https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html) . “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris and Kate Sinclair; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing by Jeff Geld; audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Our executive producer is Irene Noguchi. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski. ... Read more

19 Apr 2022

1 HR 07 MINS

1:07:43

19 Apr 2022


#121

Best Of: This Conversation Will Change How You Think About Trauma

“Trauma is much more than a story about something that happened long ago,” writes Dr. Bessel van der Kolk. “The emotions and physical sensations that were imprinted during the trauma are experienced not as memories but as disruptive physical reactions in the present.” Van der Kolk, a psychiatrist by training, has been a pioneer in trauma research for decades now and leads the Trauma Research Foundation. His 2014 book [ “The Body Keeps the Score,”] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/313183/the-body-keeps-the-score-by-bessel-van-der-kolk-md/) quickly became a touchstone on the topic. And although the book was first released over seven years ago, it now sits at No. 1 on the New York Times best-seller list, a testament to the state of our national psyche. The core argument of the book is that traumatic experiences — everything from sexual assault and incest to emotional and physical abuse — become embedded in the older, more primal parts of our brain that don’t have access to conscious awareness. And that means two things simultaneously. First, that trauma lodges in the body. We carry a physical imprint of our psychic wounds. The body keeps the score. But — and I found this more revelatory — the mind hides the score. It obscures the memories, or convinces us our victimization was our fault, or covers the event in shame so we don’t discuss it. There’s a lot in this conversation. We discuss the lived experience of trauma, the relationship between the mind and the body, the differences between our “experiencing” and “autobiographical” selves, why van der Kolk believes human language is both a “miracle” and a “tyranny,” unconventional treatments for trauma from [ E.M.D.R.] (https://www.apa.org/ptsd-guideline/treatments/eye-movement-reprocessing) and yoga to psychedelics and theater, how societies can manage collective trauma like 9/11 and Covid-19, the shortcomings of America’s “post-alcoholic” approach to dealing with psychic suffering, how to navigate the often complex relationships with the traumatized people we know and love, and much more. Mentioned:  [“The Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACE) Study”] (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9635069/) by Vince Felitti et al. [Study on efficacy of EMDR] (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17284128/) [“REBUS and the Anarchic Brain: Toward a Unified Model of the Brain Action of Psychedelics”] (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31221820/) by Robin Carhart-Harris et al.  Book Recommendations: [The Apology] (https://www.bloomsbury.com/us/apology-9781635574395) by V  [Love in Goon Park] (https://www.basicbooks.com/titles/deborah-blum/love-at-goon-park/9780465026012/) by Deborah Blum [The Narrow Road to the Deep North] (https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/237108/the-narrow-road-to-the-deep-north-by-richard-flanagan/) by Richard Flanagan  You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of "The Ezra Klein Show" at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com. “The Ezra Klein Show” is produced by Annie Galvin, Jeff Geld and Rogé Karma; fact-checking by Michelle Harris; original music by Isaac Jones; mixing and engineering by Jeff Geld, audience strategy by Shannon Busta. Special thanks to Kristin Lin and Kristina Samulewski ... Read more

15 Apr 2022

1 HR 17 MINS

1:17:28

15 Apr 2022