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Nerd Journey: Career Advice for the Technology Professional

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John White | Nick Korte

Are you a technology professional unsatisfied with your current role? Looking for a resource to help understand changing job functions, changing organizations, or gaining recognition and progression? The Nerd Journey podcast helps explore alternative roles, increase job satisfaction, and accelerate career progression. Each week, we uncover patterns of technical career progression by dissecting careers of guests and discussing different job roles they’ve held, or discussing relevant career topics. We’ve interviewed people in IT operations, sales engineering, technical marketing, product management, people management, network engineering, cybersecurity, software development, entrepreneurs, and more. We also discuss improving job satisfaction and accelerating career growth. We are John White and Nick Korte, two technologists with experience in IT operations and sales engineering who started this podcast in 2018. We release on Tuesdays, and can be found at https://nerd-journey.com.

#300

People Impact: Layoffs and Survivor’s Guilt with Brad Pinkston (2/2)

Are layoffs top of mind for you right now? Brad Pinkston is a returning guest and someone who has experienced multiple layoff events in the tech industry from different seats. In episode 306, Brad shares the story of getting laid off from a small startup. We’ll dissect how he processed that news and eventually returned to big company life. Then, looking at layoffs from a different lens, we talk about feeling survivor’s guilt. Have you ever felt it? Is it wrong to feel it when you didn’t lose your job? After deciding to continue as an individual contributor, Brad would later become a member of the team he had once managed. Listen closely to hear about the hardest part of that transition and whether Brad sees himself returning to people management someday. Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024 [Brad Pinkston] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradpinkston/) works in technical pre-sales and is a returning guest. If you missed part 1 of this discussion with Brad, check out [Episode 305] (https://nerd-journey.com/go-to-market-startups-and-technical-alliances-with-brad-pinkston-1-2/) . Topics – Once Impacted by a Layoff, Examining Survivor’s Guilt, Staying Individual Contributor, Parting Thoughts ================================================================================================================ 2:29 – Once Impacted by a Layoff -------------------------------------- ---How did Brad process being laid off from the 2nd startup he joined? ------Looking back, Brad can logically see that his position really did need to be eliminated. ------Brad likes to stay on the analytical side of his mind because emotions can easily snowball in situations like these. ------“The startup was taking a chance on trying to create something. After months of trying to create it, it didn’t work. Maybe a bigger company could have taken me and put me in a different place, but this is startup world…. If we’re abandoning the strategy, we’re abandoning people who were hired to execute the strategy, so that’s the way that I analyzed it mentally.” – Brad Pinkston ------The emotional processing of this event was not easy. Brad says he was worried about finances and taking care of his family among other things. ------Brad mentions one of the worst things a manager or leader can say in a layoff situation such as this is how great someone is and that they won’t have any trouble finding a job. ---------“If I’m so great, why did you need to eliminate me as opposed to repurposing me or something like that? …That was the biggest emotional reaction I had to the entire thing…. I think that managers or people that have to deliver that news…they say that thinking that it’s going to help you be more confident, but it is not helpful at all. It is a shot to the gut emotionally, so if you’re ever in a place where you have to deliver that news, don’t say that.” – Brad Pinkston, on telling someone being laid off they won’t have trouble finding a job ------John highlights the fact that we as humans don’t react emotionally the same way we intellectually think we should. ---------“Our emotional reactions…they just are. Whether or not it makes sense intellectually, it is what happens…. You can do all of the intellectualization that you want. That doesn’t change what the emotional reaction was.” – John White, on how reactions to situations might not make sense ---------We might feel that we have failed again or feel worse by having an emotional reaction that intellectually doesn’t make sense. A person can spiral downward quickly this way. ---------John has learned to try and give himself grace in these situations (when the emotional reaction does not make logical sense). ------This is the only time Brad has been laid off, and he feels lucky that it’s only happened once. ---------Telling people they are going to be fine might cause an emotional reaction. ---------Looking at this differently, Brad thinks he would have been upset if the layoff had been completely impersonal and fact based. He would have been upset that they didn’t care. ---------“There’s no way to receive or deliver that news in a way that’s going to be positive. You can only control levels of bad in that scenario in my opinion.” – Brad Pinkston ------John references the movie [Up in the Air] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Up_in_the_Air_(2009_film)) and George Clooney’s character flying around the county to fire people. ---------The way in which Clooney’s character conducted the firing seemed a little bit like emotional manipulation. ------Brad says there is an emotional reaction to being laid off that you’re “not good enough.” ---------If you have been laid off, let your professional network know what happened. Cast a wide net, and don’t be afraid of telling people. ---------If you haven’t built a strong set of professional connections, start doing it right now. Your network is there to help if they can in times of need. Hopefully you are also giving to your network consistently. ---------“Don’t be ashamed of being laid off. It is what it is. If you haven’t been laid off or fired, just wait a few years.” – Brad Pinkston ------John was laid off from Google as part of a reduction in force of over 11,000 people. It was a very humbling situation. ---------John tried to cope with the situation intellectually by telling himself it wasn’t personal and that it didn’t mean John was bad. But it still does not feel good to lose your job. ---------You can hear more details of what happened and how John reacted in [Episode 220 – John Got Fired] (https://nerd-journey.com/john-got-fired/) . 10:12 – Examining Survivor’s Guilt ---------------------------------------- ---Sometimes the organization you work for has a round of layoffs, and you are not impacted. ---From where John is sitting, he sees friends working at other organizations getting laid off and feels some survivor’s guilt. ------“I’m sitting where I’m sitting not because of how amazing I am but because of a roll of the dice, literally a roll of the dice. And that’s a difficult thing to deal with.” – John White ---Brad is very analytical and an engineer at heart. He shares the story of being someone who survived a layoff event. ------It’s helpful if those who remain at a company after a layoff can understand the reasoning behind an organization’s decision to reduce the workforce (i.e. where the organization was going and why). ---John is seeing really good people being let go in these layoffs we’re seeing in the industry. ------“We’re all going through seeing good friends who are really good at their jobs that are really valuable being let go from organizations…into a job market where other companies are doing the same thing….” – John White ---Brad tells us the team he was on before a restructuring event was an amazing group of engineers. ------It’s difficult to figure out why you remain but other talented people were laid off. ------There’s a lot of survivor’s guilt (the only term we have for it) associated with still being at a company after one of these events. We can be thankful for still having a job but still feel a sense of guilt. ------Nick highlights how this can create an awkward feeling. What business would someone still employed have to feel bad? ---------We want to maintain relationships with people who have been impacted but might not know what to say to encourage. ---Executives have to make hard decisions for the good of the company. We’re also not saying every one of these deicisions by executives are made in the right way either. ------Brad knows it isn’t easy for the managers and leaders who have to deliver tough news to people about being laid off. ------When layoff events start to happen, Brad says people are in limbo, uncertain if they are getting a good call or a bad call. There is a lot of uncertainty. ------“Even the good call…good for me…that’s not a good or a bad call for the manager calling to deliver that. It’s just another call that they’ve got to deliver, and I feel for the folks that have to deliver that message because a lot of times they’re not even part of the decision on who is going to get a good call or a bad call…. That is in a nutshell more of middle management than people realize. Even at good companies you gotta deliver bad news.” – Brad Pinkston, on not always being able to set the strategy as a middle manager but having to execute it ------John shares the story of a manager he saw deliver tough news to an employee. In this case it was not in the middle of a layoff. The manager realized the person did not fit within what the team needed but still saw value in the person and reached out to contacts who were willing to give them a serious interview for a job better suited for the person. ------John mentions the issue with layoffs is not enough slack in people’s networks to account for 1000 people hitting the job market in a specific geography on the same day, for example. There may not 1000 job openings right then. ---------John has tried to give to his network to the degree that he can, being open to talking with people if they need a listening ear. ---------“The is not the end of your career. This is a comma in your career. Your career is a long book, and this is…maybe not even the end of a chapter. It might be in the middle.” – John White, on guidance he would give to others right now ---------The job market is tough right now with so many tech layoffs. John heard someone make an off-handed comment about there being a lot of startups 5 years from now founded by people who were laid off. That doesn’t help anyone looking for a job right now and is yet another thing not to say to someone who has been impacted. ---Do the managers or leaders who have to execute mass layoffs also feel survivor’s guilt? ------Brad has been lucky in that he’s never had to deliver the layoff news to someone. ------He’s managed people out of the business and managed people into better roles. ------Brad thinks the front and second-line managers he’s worked with have definitely felt the survivor’s guilt. ---------If Brad were in the position of needing to deliver the bad news, he feels he would be more heartbroken over having to execute something he doesn’t really want to do. This would be more painful than the eventual survivor’s guilt. ---------An individual contributor on a team that was reduced may be feeling survivor’s guilt, but they didn’t get cussed out like a manager might have after delivering bad news to someone, for example. Likely managers will first need to deal with the execution of laying people off and whatever fallout comes from different people’s reactions to that situation. ---------John says it can’t feel good to tell people you know are good at their jobs that the organization no longer needs them. ---------“That’s what’s happen right now, unfortunately…. And that’s why we’re all talking about survivor’s guilt. These are people that are significantly skilled individuals that are impacted by a decision made that was totally out of their control regardless of how they performed…. We keep going back to the same terminology because there’s nothing any easier…. That feeling…it’s hard to get past.” – Brad Pinkston ------John doesn’t know that we have an answer for this. ---------John says when he sees announcements on LinkedIn with news of layoffs, he offers a listening ear if that’s what people need. ---While Brad was laid off from the startup, he was fortunate to not be unemployed for a long period of time. Here’s some advice Brad would offer to anyone impacted by a layoff, someone feeling survivor’s guilt, or others feeling bad about what is happening within our industry: ------Reach out to others, and offer to be a reference if you can. Let people know you respect them and that you know they are talented individuals. ------It is confidence building when someone reaches out and offers to be a reference / sends you some encouragement. It helps motivate people to keep going and to marshal their resources (their network, etc.). ------Let people know you’re there to help however you can. ------Nick says we can send people helpful resources and communicate our intent to help with the caveat that they are free to use them or lose them. ---John mentions our industry goes through swings from it being near impossible to find a job to having extreme difficulty finding people to hire, but those periods could be 2 years apart or more. ------After being laid off from Google Cloud a couple of years ago, John saw there were many openings for sales engineers across the country. ------It’s different being laid off at the time of this recording because there are multiple companies doing reductions in force, making it tougher for job candidates. 27:19 – Staying Individual Contributor -------------------------------------------- ---Would Brad go back to people management, or is he enjoying individual contributor life too much after returning to it a few years ago? ------Brad really enjoys what he is doing and is currently a member of the team he managed 5 years ago. ------When Brad returned as an individual contributor to the team he had once managed, Brad would be working for someone who had once indirectly reported to him. ------“That was the hardest thing about the transitioning back…. How do I have these conversations and be helpful with my experience but make sure that he knows that I know that it’s his team and that I respect his leadership and will follow him? That was the hardest thing that I’ve dealt with with the manager to individual contributor transition. When I joined back on the team, I had hired or recruited probably 80% of that team to come on board. So I wanted to make sure that everybody knew I’m here to be one of the team members, and I am not going to step on anybody’s toes.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor on a team you once managed ---------Even though it was a challenge to join the same team he had once managed, Brad tells us everything went very well. ------While Brad is enjoying being an individual contributor, he would definitely go back to people management. ---------Brad feels lucky to be working with a talented team of salespeople and technical SE peers. ---------“I would say that I’m not in a rush by any means, but I do want to go back into people management. I did enjoy it. I think I’ll be much more picky with the role than I was when I transitioned to the startup. I’ll ask a lot more of those inciteful questions, John…. But I do think that the story will come full circle back to that for me…because there’s too many aspects of it that I miss.” – Brad Pinkston, on someday going back to people management ---We’ve heard from other guests that going from manager to individual contributor was about getting closer to the technology. Did Brad find himself missing that aspect of the job too? ------For Brad, it was more about getting closer to working with customers. ------Brad enjoyed getting back in front of customers and building customer relationships again. ---------Managers might attend customer meetings with members of their team, but it isn’t the same as when you are the front-line SE supporting the customer and own the relationship. ---------“I do believe that if you’re a good leader and you’re a good manager that you contribute more than just being another sport coat in a meeting.” – Brad Pinkston ---------Brad has loved building customer relationships and influencing customer strategies. ---------Brad can only stand behind technology he wholeheartedly believes will make a customer’s life better. ------“That’s the thing that kind of holds me back from going into people management because you get away from that. Instead, what you’re doing is you’re investing in the people on your team and making them better. And then you see it pay off. But a lot of times when it pays off, they go on to another team. So, you don’t get to see the long-term engagement there like I’m getting to see now that I’ve been back in the role for 2 years.” – Brad Pinkston, on being an individual contributor ---------John mentions he just had his first person promoted off his team (i.e. a growth opportunity this person wanted that John helped foster). Judging success by the number of people promoted off your team is a badge John will proudly wear. He agrees you don’t get to participate in that person’s success in the long term but rather just be an observer of it. ---------Brad shares the story of someone on his team years ago whose family was relocating. This person took a promotion outside the company rather than a new role internally. It was a bigger and better role for the person career wise, and Brad sees it as a bittersweet moment since the company lost top talent in the process. ---------John’s hope is that we are giving advice that is affecting people positively on this podcast. 34:37 – Parting Thoughts ------------------------------ ---Nick tries to sum up the theme of the episode to see if that matches what John would say. What do you think? ------Brad likes to build things and wants to make an impact. Not being able to make an impact leads to job dissatisfaction. The impact for Brad can be on the customers he serves or the team he serves as a people manager. Brad has worked for a big company, multiple startups, and is now back at a big company. He has demonstrated that someone can be successful regardless of whether they are a people manager or individual contributor at multiple companies. ------John says even if you’re not a people manager you can still affect people’s careers in a positive way. We can mentor and experience the success of others even if it’s not as their direct manager. ---If Brad, John, and Nick didn’t enjoy the people side of what they do, likely they would not have pursued sales engineering. ------Satisfaction can come from multiple places like… ---------Being an individual contributor working with customers ---------Mentoring others on your team ---------Impacting the people in your professional network ------“I used to tell my team we need to impact process, pipeline, and people. Hit all 3 every day, and you’ve had a successful day.” – Brad Pinkston ---------Pipeline can mean merely generating some new interesting conversations. ---------Process means we want to be efficient in what we do. ---------“The people was always the biggest piece to me – whether my team was impacting each other, impacting a customer, or whatever it is…I think at the end of the day that’s the most important piece to me. But I’m impacting it in so many different ways…big companies, small companies, through layoffs (being part of them or being the one being laid off). The people impact is always the most important piece of it to me.” – Brad Pinkston ---If you want to follow up with Brad, you can find him on LinkedIn ------Right now stay focused on your network. Reach out to your peers. And feel free to reach out to Brad. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---If you’re looking for more support on the topic of layoffs, whether you’ve been impacted or it happens to be top of mind, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . This is a curated set of our most impactful discussions on the topic of layoffs, each with practical tips for listeners like you. ------What are we missing on the topic of layoffs that you would like to hear more about? Send us an e-mail with your feedback – [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) . We would love to hear from you! ---For Brad it was about impacting the people in whatever role he was in. What is it that you like to impact the most? ------Brad’s story is a great example of how we can make an impact in an area that’s important to us in multiple different job roles. ------Maybe you want to impact technology architecture, clean up technical debt, impact strategy, impact a product’s long-term roadmap, or you want to impact people but never want to become a people manager. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ---If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . ... Read more

17 Dec 2024

41 MINS

41:56

17 Dec 2024

#299

Go-to-Market: Startups and Technical Alliances with Brad Pinkston (1/2)

What exactly is a technical alliance? Technology companies create alliance relationships to support product integration and to increase revenue by creating multiple avenues for selling a product. But as Brad Pinkston knows, alliance relationships between different companies can become quite complex. This week in episode 305 we’re rejoined by Brad Pinkston to hear his story of pursuing a role at a startup while at the same time making the move from people manager to individual contributor. We’ll define go-to-market strategy and how that related to Brad’s role at the startup, discuss what happens when a new job turns out to be different than what we expected, highlight some thoughts on evaluating startups from a different lens before joining, and listen to Brad reflect on his experience interviewing for a second-line manager. Original Recording Date: 11-21-2024 Topics – Brad Pinkston Returns, The Allure of Startup Life, Go-to-Market and an Expectations Mismatch, Technical Alliance Relationships, Returning to Individual Contributor, Managers and Interview Expertise, Running Away from Something ============================================================================================================================================================================================================================================ 2:!7 – Brad Pinkston Returns ---------------------------------- --- We last spoke with [Brad Pinkston] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/bradpinkston/) back in 2020. What has he been up to since? You can find our previous discussions with Brad here: ------ [Episode 83 – The Path to People Management and Early Lessons Learned] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-path-to-people-management-and-early-lessons-learned/) ------ [Episode 84 – Management Interviews and Transitions with Brad Pinkston] (https://nerd-journey.com/management-interviews-and-transitions-with-brad-pinkston/) --- Brad decided to leave a big company and try out life working for a startup while at the same time making a move from people manager to individual contributor. Eventually Brad transitioned out of startup life and has returned to a big company in a technical presales role. 3:21 – The Allure of Startup Life --------------------------------------- ---What attracted Brad to startup life, and what makes it alluring when you work for a big company? ------One reason to join a startup is the potential for a very large future payday from stocks. ------“Fundamentally what I really like to do is I like to build things from the ground up.” – Brad Pinkston ---------Before moving to the startup, Brad was in a first line manager role at a big company. At the time, Brad did not feel he had the amount of control he would have liked over what he was building. ------Moving to the startup was a chance to go and build an organization. Brad’s role was going to be leading the relationship between his past company (the big company) and the new company (the startup). The startup planned to have an [OEM] (https://corporatefinanceinstitute.com/resources/valuation/original-equipment-manufacturer-oem/) relationship with the company he was leaving. ------More specifically, Brad was going to… ---------Help the two companies work together ---------Develop sales strategies ---------Teach salespeople at the startup how to work with sellers at the former company ---------Teach sellers at his former company about the startup’s new technology – something much more security and networking focused and out of the area of expertise of his former company ---Nick sees Brad’s move as an adjacency with some good relatable experience. *Brad was a people manager who had built and led teams. He would be building an organizational structure in terms of processes and ways of working together. And he also knew the technology from his former employer. With solutions from the former company being integrated into the startup’s technology, Brad wasn’t starting from nothing. His base of knowledge was very relevant to what he would be doing. ------“Any time I transition between roles…I’m always up for a new challenge, and that’s why any of us take on new roles. But, I try to make sure that there’s a cornerstone of my skillset that’s going to be translatable…. My thought process was that I understood the tech…and I understood the relationships and go-to-market and the way that this was going to work. And I will say that I was 1 for 2 on the 2 things that I thought were going to be the cornerstones there. I did understand the tech really well, but the way that the relationships were going to work and what my role was really going to be, I was completely wrong about.” – Brad Pinkston, on moving to the startup 7:08 – Go-to-Market and an Expectations Mismatch ------------------------------------------------------ ---How would Brad define go-to-market? ------Brad learned from his experience that go-to-market means different things across different companies. Another thing to consider in all of this is the OEM relationship mentioned previously and the natural requirement for two companies to collaborate (the big company / Brad’s former employer and the startup). ------To Brad, go-to-market at the startup was going to be something like the following. And he admits to being very wrong about what it actually was. ---------Interfacing with sales teams ---------Creating sales strategy ---------Be at the forefront of selling and meeting with at least some customers ---------Developing the target persona to sell to / spend time with ---------Developing the value proposition of the solution ------“What I actually ended up getting is kind of what I felt I was in before.” – Brad Pinkston, on the experience at a startup not being what he expected ------Brad did not get to develop the go-to-market strategy at the startup as he had hoped. He was told to execute a strategy someone else had already developed. ------Brad also thought the startup would have a more collaborative culture than it did. Despite conversations about what he thought the go-to-market should be with many people, his ideas for further developing the strategy were not really considered. ---------Brad spent a lot of time trying to clear up misunderstandings between the two companies (the startup and the big company), but it ultimately was not fruitful. ------Overall, Brad was not able to make the impact he originally desired. ---------“When you’re kind of a builder / engineer mindset like I think we all are…you want to see that impact. Whether it’s a check or big deal or happy customers or you just feel…a sense of success you’ve gotta have some kind of payoff of impact…and I didn’t feel like I had any at the end of the day.” – Brad Pinkston, on the importance of making an impact ---Nick highlights Brad also lost the ability to do creative solutioning in his work. ---Brad shares some lessons learned on startup life. ------Thinking of startups brings to mind characteristics like collaborative culture, flat organizational structure, being a jack of all trades / the ability to do a variety of different types of work. You normally hear about a lot of hard work but also a willingness of people to pitch in and help wherever needed. ------“Not all startups are created equal.” – Brad Pinkston ------One thing Brad didn’t hear about going into this was the different inflection points of a startup’s life. ---------Brad joined the startup in question from a timing perspective during an inflection point that was somewhat detrimental. ---------When an organization is very small, employees are willing to help out in all kinds of areas even if outside their normal purview to help the company or team achieve its goal. People often work across many areas with an “all hands on deck” mentality. ---------As an organization grows, a good leader will recognize the inefficiencies and transition to having clearly defined job roles and responsibilities for each employee. We might even call this a growing pain of an organization. Brad tells us the startup was in the midst of this transition when he joined, and employees were encouraged to work within their own roles and responsibilities. This stage of the startup was not something Brad expected to encounter and inhibited his ability to impact and execute on a strategy the way he was hoping to. ---------“I thought that was the startup I was joining. But it had hit this inflection point with size and revenue and all that they needed much more definition of roles, and they were still building that when I came on board.” – Brad Pinkston ------Just like go-to-market can mean many things to many different people, startups can go from 3 people working in a garage or home office to multi-million dollar organizations with hundreds of people on staff. John mentions we’re talking about understanding a startup’s stage of growth before joining and making sure our expectations of impact in a role match what the company expects based on the culture they are building. ---------Brad does not recommend the mess around and find out mentality to learn what he ultimately ended up learning. But he respects the fact that the startup needed clearly defined roles for its employees. ---------Brad thinks perhaps he could have had different expectations going into the role or selected another startup as his employer. ---------Large company can also mean different things to different people. ---John thinks it would have been hard to discover the startup was in this phase of growth during the interview process. Asking someone a very pointed question about this in an interview gives you one person’s honest perspective at a point in time, and it may not reflect the reality you experience when you start working in a particular role because something changed. ------Brad thinks maybe he didn’t ask as many questions as he should have during the interview process because he really wanted the job. Deeper questions about go-to-market to check for alignment might have been helpful. ------“Looking back on it I’m going to blame myself more than I’m going to blame them…or anything like that. I’m the one who made the deicision to leave the big company and go to the startup…. To be fair, I don’t think my role ended up the way that my manager expected it to either. And that’s just the turn on a dime of a startup.” – Brad Pinkston ---With Brad’s knowledge of and experience at his previous employer, did taking this to a new employer play out the way he expected or differently? ------This goes back to the difference between crafting a strategy and executing one made by someone else. In the strategy Brad wanted to build, his relationships from the previous company were going to be extremely valuable because sales teams from each company would be in active collaboration. ------Brad’s role at the startup ended up being more focused on business development in the background – a mix of engineering, product development, and even product management. While Brad felt he was effective in doing the job, he wasn’t as passionate about it as he would have been if the role had been more of what he was expecting. ------The relationships Brad was bringing to the startup were not valuable in the end because… ---------It was not his strategy. ---------The relationships he had did not bring value to the strategy he was given by others to execute. 20:11 – Technical Alliance Relationships ---------------------------------------------- ---John mentions this sounds like it could have been an [ISV (Independent Software Vendor relationship)] (https://www.techtarget.com/searchitchannel/definition/ISV) , OEM, or even an alliance partnership between the startup and the big company (Brad’s former employer). How did Brad build up his relationships with these teams at his former employer? ------The definitions of things like ISV, OEM, and alliances can differ slightly. ------Some ISVs have a technology that is marketed and sold together hand in hand by different companies. There are also ISVs where we may not realize there is an ISV relationship (i.e. something you can buy through Amazon Marketplace that is software developed by a different software vendor). ------Brad learned that the nature of ISV relationship and which company is involved in selling a product can vary. ------Brad was expecting an ISV relationship between the startup and his former employer that made for a better together kind of solution. The startup was selling a version of their own product that was part of a different company’s product. ---------One possible future state was having a solution (part of an ISV relationship) that could be purchased based on a customer’s relationship with either company. This unraveled quickly. ---------Brad thought it would be an ISV relationships where both company’s sales teams would be engaging with customers together / going to market together (making his relationships very valuable). ---------The ISV relationship which ended up happening was merely Brad’s company delivering technology for another company to use as part of their own solution. This did not require engagement of sales teams at the startup. ---------John gives an example of an ISV relationship he encountered while working at Google Cloud. ---------“It gets real complicated and sticky in alliances when you’re talking about OEM or ISV or…how all that happens. I respect the people that have been in alliances their entire career because it can be a spaghetti of things you’re having to deal with….” – Brad Pinkston, on the nature of technology alliances ---This presents another job and category of job that most people don’t understand or know is an area for an entire career. ------We’re talking about managing relationships between companies that sell complimentary products, co-sell their solutions, or have one company use another company’s technology in their products. ------John did not know this type of role existed before he started working for a big company. ------How products are sold, where you can buy them, how products will be marketed, what teams will be involved, etc. are far more complex than we might realize (and not a topic we plan to dig deeper on today). 26:30 – Returning to Individual Contributor ------------------------------------------------- ---What made Brad want to go back to being an individual contributor after being a people manager? ------Brad still misses leading a team and helping people progress their careers, and he felt taking the role was only putting this on pause. ------Brad thought things would be very successful at the startup, and he would eventually build a team of his own there. ------We can be leaders without needing to be people managers, and Brad highlights the chance he was given to influence people within the startup even though he did not have direct reports. ------“I’m going to get to build something. I’ll build relationships, sales strategy, and at some point in time I’ll build a team. So it was just a pause on managing people. That’s what I thought was going to happen….” – Brad Pinkston, on the decision to become an individual contributor ------When Brad interviewed with the startup, was Brad’s decision to pursue an individual contributor role after previously being a people leader something that came up? ---------Brad says he doesn’t feel it came up this tiem because everyone was focused on the future of what things were going to be. ---------Brad has a lot of respect for the manager he had at the startup. Brad would be someone on the bench of talent who could take a people manager role if something changed. ---------After things started to be less successful than people had expected, Brad had conversations with people to discuss what leading a team of SEs might look like at the startup. It really did not go anywhere. Brad says he might have pursued management at the startup if he had decided to stay. ---Is it hard to get used to being an individual contributor again after having been a people manager? ------Brad says the transition from manager to individual contributor at a new company was pretty easy. ------Part of Brad’s role at the startup was to educate account SEs at the company on what the solution being brought to market was. ------Brad was able to leverage some of the skills he had learned from managing people in the past as an individual contributor at the startup like the ability to make connections inside the organization. ------At first it was strange to not have 1-1s or career progression conversations. Brad missed the ability to help someone along in their career in the way managers who care can do that. ------Brad does not miss the “adult babysitting” side of being a manager. ---------Brad built the team he was leading before joining the startup as an individual contributor, so there wasn’t much of this. 31:37 – Managers and Interview Expertise ---------------------------------------------- ---John had an interesting thought. After sitting through performance reviews and interviewing incoming job candidates as a hiring manager, he should be a lot better at interviewing for jobs. John would know what the interview questions actually mean. This also allows him to make performance reviews easier for leaders. ---Brad feels like his experiences interviewing people and going through performance reviews have helped him be very direct and drive conversations with his managers over time. ------“Whether you’re selling to a customer or you’re selling to your manager that you should get a raise or a promotion, you’re always selling.” – Brad Pinkston ---Brad also felt his experience interviewing people would help him interview for other jobs. It did in some cases, but Brad says interviewing for a second-line manager humbled him significantly. ------“But interviewing for a second-line manager humbled me…significantly. It’s a great example of what got you here won’t get you there…. The thought process and the things that I was asked and how well prepared I was…was not in line with I think what the expectations were.” – Brad Pinkston ------When Brad interviewed for a second-line manager role, he did not get the promotion. But one of his peers did. There are some universal things Brad learned in this process. ---------Sometimes a first line manager can get a feel for what the greater organization needs, but they might not get a true picture of it at their level. ---------“You kind of have to figure out what your strategy would be and deliver it very confidently. And you might be completely wrong….because you just don’t know what the organization is going through.” – Brad Pinkston, on interviewing for a second-line manager role ---------Brad’s strategy as a second-line manager was focused on sales strategy, expectations of the team and how he would run it, etc. ---------The person who got the job was more focused on how to bring the team together, personal development, etc. It was really important to bring the people together as the organization grew and changed. This person knew bringing people together was the first priority. Brad had this item as a lesser priority. ---------At a second-line manager level you have to present a strategy and share how the front-line managers under you will help carry it out. At a front-line manager level, the tactical things are also very important. ---------“You kind of have to set the strategy at a second-line and hope that your leaders under you are adopting and bought in and part of it as much as you want them to be…that kind of thing.” – Brad Pinkston ------About a year into his role as a front-line manager, John’s manager left. People at that time encouraged him to apply for the open spot. ---------At first, John thought it was kind of crazy to consider interviewing for the next level of management. But, looking back, he feels like the experience interviewing (even if you don’t get it) might be a nice stepping stone to getting a second-line manager role eventually. ---------Part of this might be understanding the relationships you need to have at a second-line manager level, going in with a plan, and having it picked apart. Someone could go interview for the second-line manager role and come to understand they didn’t really know what the job is. ---------“If I don’t know what that job is, then maybe I shouldn’t be applying for it.” – John White, talking about the role of a second-line people manager ---------Brad says the second-line manager job he referenced and the needs of it would be different than it would have been for the same role on the other side of the US, for example. ---------“That’s why it’s always good to be interviewing. It’s a skill you that need to continue to hone just like your technical chops. I learned so much during that process that will help me the next time that I interview for a second-line manager role….if that’s in my future.” – Brad Pinkston 38:40 – Running Away from Something ----------------------------------------- ---Brad eventually left that startup and went to another startup. He felt burned out, and the reorganization did not work out the way he wanted. ---“And so I went to another startup, which…it was the thing that nobody should ever do. I was running away from something as opposed to running to something.” – Brad Pinkston, on leaving one startup and moving to another ---Brad says this was a much smaller startup, and he was eventually laid off. It was definitely a low moment. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---We can’t talk about being a builder without talking about [Episode 148 – The Magic of Building with Chris Wahl (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-magic-of-building-with-chris-wahl-1-2/) . It’s a great episode to go back and reference. ---People who like to build things like creative control over what they are building. ------In [Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/an-array-of-decision-points-with-tim-crawford-2-2/) we heard about the decision between people leadership and individual contributor being a choice between building people and buidling technology. ------At the startup Brad was trying to build something related to technology and not necessarily developing people as a manager would, so it aligns with what Tim Crawford shared with us. ---Technical alliances could have a career option for you. We’ve not highlighted these roles on the show before now. Every technology company has these types of roles that work on things like integration, OEM relationships, or ISV relationships. ---If you’re thinking of joining a startup, it makes sense to ask each person in the interview process how clearly defined roles and responsibilities are at the company and how clear each person is on their roles and responsibilities. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ---If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . ... Read more

10 Dec 2024

43 MINS

43:33

10 Dec 2024

#298

Next Level: Shifting Specialties and Broadening Your Outcome Goal with Duncan Epping (2/2)

Are you trying to reach that next level in your career? Why do you want to get to the next level, and what is most important to you in doing that? If next level means next job level in your case, at some point there is no next level. What then? Duncan Epping would encourage you not to set a goal based on an endpoint. This week in episode 304 we share Duncan’s career progression over time to Chief Technologist, discussing his motivations and goals along the way. You’ll hear about the qualities top level individual contributors in our industry possess. We also talk through the willingness to shift our technical specialty over time and the humility of approaching everything with the intent to learn something regardless of the outcome. Original Recording Date: 10-29-2024 [Duncan Epping] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/depping/) is Chief Technologist, a published author, a blogger, and someone who loves to learn. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Duncan, check out [Episode 303] (https://nerd-journey.com/write-to-learn-and-learn-to-present-with-duncan-epping-1-2/) . Topics – A Job Role is not the Goal, Reputation and Reliability, Shifting Your Area of Specialization ===================================================================================================== 2:47 – A Job Role is not the Goal --------------------------------------- ---We’ve discussed not needing to go into management to progress in our careers and continuing to progress as individual contributors with some of our guests. Sometimes this means moving to another company whose clearly defined job leveling supports this choice (staff level, principal level, distinguished level, and perhaps all the way to Chief Technologist). What does it take to progress along this path? ------Duncan tells us this is something that is quite difficult to discuss because the way someone can progress can differ greatly across companies. Things which may be important for progression at one company may not be important at others. ------Though Duncan is a Chief Technologist today, repeating the same steps he took does not guarantee someone will reach the same level or end up in the same situation. Some of this has to do with being in the right place at the right time or being properly positioned to reach the next level. ------“Even for myself, at some point there is no career progression anymore…. There’s not always a next level. The same applies for the CEO of the company. There is no higher level…. That is also something to consider.” – Duncan Epping ------We might hear of people wanting to get to the next level and then to the next, but at some point, the progression will stop. ------“You also need to ask yourself, ‘why do you want to get to that next level? What is most important to you?’ …One of the things that was extremely important to me when I started out in the virtualization space…it wasn’t becoming a Chief Technologist or a CTO or anything like that…. The one thing that was really important to me was to learn as much as I possibly could about this new, cool technology that appeared on the market. That is the one thing that I wanted to do. And that is what set me up for success. I wasn’t constantly chasing new job roles. Those job roles were more or less chasing me…which I know sounds very funny, but that’s the way things really went….” – Duncan Epping ------Several months after Duncan started blogging, both VMware and EMC reached out to him about job openings (because he had written a lot of content). But Duncan did not write the articles to get a new job. He wrote them to learn something about a technology he was passionate about. ------After starting in professional services at VMware, Duncan consistently tried to stay on top of the latest technical innovations inside the company, expanding his professional network through discussions with product managers and engineering team members. He was asked to move over to the cloud team that did some of the earliest deployments of vCloud Director. ------Once the VCDX certification was created, Duncan wanted to figure out how to get it. Through the process of obtaining his VCDX, Duncan further expanded his professional network and was asked to become a Technical Marketing Architect. ------“It was all a more or less natural evolution in terms of my passion and my interests more than me chasing a particular job.” – Duncan Epping ------In Duncan’s opinion, a principal or a Chief Technologist does not mean you’re the person who has been working at a company the longest. Someone could be a senior engineer for many years while others could progress to higher job levels in a very short time. ------“It’s also not always the most technical person that gets to the next level. It’s typically that person that knows how to communicate well both internally and externally but on top of that is also extremely interested in learning new things. And that could be anything. I wanted to say learning new technology, but it isn’t necessarily new technology. It could be anything. And I think being able to convey that passion and helping other people moving forward as well…that is what essentially then sets you up for a job role like a Chief Technologist….” – Duncan Epping ------Being a Chief Technologist isn’t just about understanding technology. Duncan mentions this is about understanding people, processes, customers, and much more. ------Duncan highlights being a part of mentoring programs in the past as both a mentor and a mentee. In mentoring conversations people often want to know how to get from one point to another or how to replicate what someone else did in a short amount of time. Duncan says when he takes them through the process, they might say they don’t have the time to put in the work. ---------Duncan chose to continue learning over time because it was a part of his job but also because he loves learning about new technology as well. He didn’t think about the process in terms of time he did or didn’t have. ---------Duncan loves writing about and reading about new technology, watching videos about it, and answering questions about it on community forums / Twitter / Facebook / LinkedIn. ---------Duncan feels it is all of the above things combined that present a person as someone who could take on a role of an internal champion and an external facing technologist for a company (a role like Chief Technologist). ---John restates this as the role is more of an outcome of many actions, and the goal was staying curious, continuing to learn, and building a professional network along the way. The recognition and getting new opportunities seem like a byproduct of the underlying curiosity. ------“A lot of people when they talk about their career progression and then they start thinking about goals, they tend to talk about that endpoint where they want to get. They tend to set that goal and say ‘I want to become a CTO of X, Y, and Z.’” – Duncan Epping, reflecting back on a career progression talk he gave a couple of years ago ------When Duncan started working for VMware, the role of Chief Technologist did not even exist, so it certainly was not a goal for him. There was one CTO of the company at that time, and that was it. ------“My goal was always to learn more about the technology that I wanted to learn more about and help other people to understand the technology better. That was what I was working toward.” – Duncan Epping ---------Notice Duncan’s goal was not a sole focus on pay raises or promotions. Those were byproducts of the work he was doing toward a larger goal. ------People tend to set huge goals and get disappointed when they do not reach them. Duncan mentions even within huge companies, there are a relatively small number of CTO or Chief Technologist roles. ---------In Duncan’s opinion we should not set a goal to land one of these specific roles because the chances of disappointment are quite high when we don’t get one. 12:58 – Reputation and Reliability ---------------------------------------- ---John speaks to his own philosophy of [dreaming in bands] (https://nerd-journey.com/episode-019-process-over-outcomes-and-dreaming-in-bands/) and not being laser focused on a single job role or company. Think about the types of people you want to work with, the projects you want to work on, and the things you want to learn (i.e. things that can create more opportunities for you in the future – sometimes in the form of a new role). ------When Duncan became a Chief Technologist, there was no process for becoming one. The process was created internally because people wanted to promote Duncan to that level. ------“They knew my skill set. They knew I was passionate about something. They didn’t really have a head count for it, but they ended up creating a head count. And they ended up creating that role because they felt there was a need to have someone like myself to be part of that organization.” – Duncan Epping, on getting chosen for a specific role ------In most cases, Duncan was asked to take certain roles rather than chasing them. ------“I think that is something that a lot of people don’t tend to understand…. I didn’t wake up on Monday morning and all of a sudden I was a Chief Technologist. I also started out as a consultant at VMware. I was just a consultant, and then I became a senior consultant. And then after a couple of years I became a principal consultant. And then I went from consultancy into technical marketing. And then, within technical marketing I became a principal. And then I moved between different teams…. It all happened organically, and it isn’t something that I planned for. It is just something that occurred over time.” – Duncan Epping, on progressing through different roles within a company ------There were many things Duncan had achieved even before he came to VMware. ------Things we can learn from Duncan’s story and apply to our own career progression are things like emphasizing curiosity, knowledge creation / knowledge publishing (learning in public), building professional networks, and developing a reputation inside and outside your company. It sounds to John like when you’ve built a good reputation both inside and outside your company, the learning and publishing of that knowledge is the important thing and over time has a tendency to bring opportunities your way (almost like becoming a center of mass). ------Duncan says we also need to be open to new opportunities, even if it means stepping into an unknown area. He would encourage us not to be afraid of new opportunities. ------“I’ve been part of groups that would create a new product which we didn’t know if it was going to be successful or not. And some people don’t take those opportunities because they may think if it isn’t successful I may end up without a role. But in my opinion if you’ve created a big enough network….” – Duncan Epping ------We don’t have to be the center of mass / center of attention, but developing a reputation of knowing how to find answers is very helpful. Duncan may not know the answer to every question, but he generally knows where to find the answer when someone asks. ---------Duncan mentions colleagues like William Lam, Frank Denneman, Joe Baguley, Alan Renouf, and others who operate in a similar way – they know how to find answers when something is outside their base of knowledge. They can be relied upon to go and find an answer. Duncan has featured these people and the traits they possess in presentations he’s delivered on career to various audiences. ---------“That is what is most important – that people can rely on you. And they know if I ask him or her a question, something is going to come back. And it may take 5 minutes. It may take an hour. It may take a day. But I know something is going to get back. That is also where the power of that network comes into play because if you don’t have a huge network, then you won’t be able to find the answer.” – Duncan Epping, on being a reliable source for helping others find answers to questions 19:49 – Shifting Your Area of Specialization -------------------------------------------------- ---When doing something you love to do (for Duncan, writing to learn) becomes part of your job, do you still love it? ------At the moment, writing blog posts is not part of Duncan’s role (nor is writing books). He could go months without writing anything if he wanted. ------When Duncan was in technical marketing, he enjoyed the writing aspect of the role. But what may not be so interesting is writing about the same thing many times. This can lead to getting bored. Duncan has written many articles about vSphere HA admission control and vSAN stretched clusters, for example. ------“The one thing I’ve always forced myself to do is try to figure out what I can write about something which hasn’t been written before…so try to come up with something new. And that could even be for the same feature, for the exact same functionality but just written differently based on a question that a customer asked. Or, it could be a completely different topic. That’s why in my career you’ve seen me move from being a generalist in terms of virtualization then focusing on vSphere HA, then being responsible for availability and storage within technical marketing. After that I became responsible for the SDDC…. Then I became part of the vSAN team. Now I am also part of the VCF business unit but focused on storage and availability in a broader sense. So I’ve always more or less moved around, which made it a bit more interesting to write about things.” – Duncan Epping, on shifting writing topics over time ------Lately, Duncan has been writing about running (in Dutch). Because Duncan loves writing so much, he is open to writing about anything. Duncan finds writing about new things interesting, and as a result we may see him shifting topics regularly. ---Duncan touched on being a generalist and becoming more specialized at times. What advice does Duncan have for others as it relates to staying a generalist or becoming more specialized? ------He’s never been too worried about falling into either category. ------Duncan started out very broad and was a systems administrator in the 1990s, focusing on Novell, Lotus Domino, Windows, and Linux systems. ------When Duncan became a virtualization consultant, that was still quite broad since it involved a focus on the servers, the storage, and the virtualization layers. As technology grew and Duncan started working for VMware, more and more systems needed to integrate / hook into the virtualization platform. ------Duncan has never had an issue diving deep into an area to become a specialist, and he’s willing to swap to a new area when needed to become a specialist there too. He has demonstrated specialty in VMware’s vSphere HA, Site Recovery Manager, and vSAN to take a few examples. ------A Chief Technologist may need to speak to storage and availability in general and then go deep in vSAN stretched clusters for a customer discussion, for example. ------“In my opinion, you don’t necessarily pigeonhole yourself. If you have the capability to dive deep into something…while you were a generalist before, I’m pretty sure after you dove into something specific, you can go back up if needed. You’re setting those boundaries yourself. No one else is doing that.” – Duncan Epping ------Duncan understands why people might be worried about making shifts between generalist and specialist, but he’s seen people make some very big jumps. ---------Duncan shares the example of Cormac Hogan. He was a support engineer for EMC 20 years ago and then started working as a support engineer for VMware. When there were openings in technical marketing, Duncan remembered working with Cormac and suggested they bring Cormac onto the technical marketing team. Cormac was very storage focused for many years, but he would later focus on Kubernetes and is currently focused Data Services Manager. ---------“So he’s been going left to right, up and down, whenever someone asks. And the reason he’s capable of doing that is not because he’s thinking about being a generalist or being a specialist. He just has a passion for technology, and if someone asks him tomorrow, ‘hey, you need to focus on x, y, and z’ he’s going to dive into that and try to figure out what it is, how it works, and how he can help customers moving forward using a solution like that. And that solution could be a tiny little feature that is part of this bigger platform, or it could be that whole platform itself…. People are too worried about those things. If you understand the process of learning new technology, you can apply that to anything.” – Duncan Epping, commenting on Cormac Hogan’s career ---------Right now, Duncan is writing about running just for fun. He even puts a disclaimer on his blog about it. ---------“I’m not a coach. I’m not an influencer in any shape or form. I’m not a specialist even. I’ve been running for 25 years, and I’ve got experience in running. I’m just trying to learn more myself, and the way that I learn things is by writing things down. So that’s why I’m sharing it. And hopefully it’s useful to others, and if it’s not, at least I got to learn something. But if you apply that mindset, it doesn’t really matter if you’re pigeonholed into that particular section and that section of the world all of a sudden stops existing. Because you can learn about some other type of technology next week or the week after. I think it’s just that process that you need to focus on and not the particular thing that you need to learn.” – Duncan Epping ---------John re-emphasizes the title not being the goal but rather the process of curiosity, learning, and building relationships being the goal. ---Duncan leaves us with an important disclaimer. ------Duncan can write about running as much as he wants, but he’s never going to run a marathon in 2:10. ------“The role and those promotions may never come…. There’s no guarantee whatsoever. And that’s why I think the focus should be in terms of following your passion and having fun and enjoying it. Because if you’re not enjoying it, it’s for sure not going to happen.” – Duncan Epping ---------Remember, even if those roles never come, we can always keep learning! ---If you want to follow up with Duncan on this discussion, you can find him: ------On Twitter / X – [@DuncanYB] (https://x.com/DuncanYB) ------On LinkedIn – [Duncan Epping] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/depping/) ------On his blog [Yellow Bricks] (https://www.yellow-bricks.com/) Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Check out Duncan’s VMUG Keynote – [Six Fundamentals for Advancing Your Career] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KI1dWaOLluc) and the [accompanying blog article] (https://www.yellow-bricks.com/2023/07/05/six-fundamentals-for-advancing-your-career-virtual-vmug-keynote-recording/) . ------Nick loves that Duncan sets goals based on learning. ------In this presentation Duncan discusses the idea of having an outcome goal that isn’t focused on a job role or endpoint and a process goal with some quantifiable steps toward the outcome. Setting outcome goals in this way makes them independent of job roles and can help set us up for future opportunities. ---The idea of shifting your specialty was very interesting. ------This is a willingness to go deep in a new area of technology and changing your focus. ------To do this well you have to understand how you learn best and continue learning, knowing for a time you will be completely focused on learning the new area while being open to changing that focus in the future. ---------Building deep expertise in an area can help prevent distractions in an industry that changes constantly. ---------Developing expertise in multiple areas makes one very broad in technology. ---One of the qualities of people who have reached some of the highest job levels for individual contributors like a principal engineer or Chief Technologist was being reliable – being someone others knew could and would go find an answer. ------Are you developing a reputation of being reliable? ---Duncan continued to follow his interests just like Stephanie Wong. Listen to these episodes for more of her story. ------ [Episode 177 – Follow the Excitement, Follow the Challenge with Stephanie Wong (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/follow-the-excitement-follow-the-challenge-with-stephanie-wong-1-2/) ------ [Episode 178 – Being a Great Generalist and Finding Your Voice with Stephanie Wong (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/being-a-great-generalist-and-finding-your-voice-with-stephanie-wong-2-2/) ---There’s a great deal of humility in the way Duncan approaches his writing. Even if no one likes what he wrote, at least he got to learn something. ------This is a great attitude that we can use for approaching so many situations in life. What can we learn from the situation even if it does not turn out the way we want? ---If you’re looking for more help related to public speaking / presentations, check out ------Neil Thompson’s [Teach the Geek] (https://www.youtube.com/c/TeachTheGeek) podcast ------ [Episode 193 – Communication for Specialists with Neil Thompson (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/communication-for-specialists-with-neil-thompson-1-2/) ------ [Episode 194 – Question Askers and Problem Solvers with Neil Thompson (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/question-askers-and-problem-solvers-with-neil-thompson-2-2/) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ---If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . ... Read more

03 Dec 2024

34 MINS

34:11

03 Dec 2024

#297

Write to Learn and Learn to Present with Duncan Epping (1/2)

What would you do if your co-presenter for a breakout session at a large technology conference had to back out a couple of weeks before the event? One option is deliver the presentation yourself. That’s exactly what Duncan Epping did in this situation despite his crippling fear of public speaking at the time. Duncan Epping is a Chief Technologist, a published author, a blogger, and someone who has given many presentations in different settings throughout his career. In episode 303, we have a focused conversation with Duncan on presentations and public speaking. You’ll hear the story of Duncan’s first public presentation at VMworld and why he decided to continue doing presentations. Duncan shares his learning process, how writing has helped him develop deep technical expertise, and how he’s been able to translate this into presentation slides. We talk through different settings for presentations like customer meetings, small groups, and very large groups and stress the importance of focusing on what the audience wants to know. Original Recording Date: 10-29-2024 Topics – Meet Duncan Epping, A Focus on Presentations and Public Speaking, Lessons Learned Then and Later, Writing and Distilling Concepts to the Core, Think about the Audience, An Outline for Presentation Building, High and Low Stakes Presentations ========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================= 2:37 – Meet Duncan Epping ------------------------------- --- [Duncan Epping] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/depping/) is presently a Chief Technologist in the VCF Business Unit at Broadcom. In the past, Duncan worked for VMware and has been part of the storage and availability team, the vSAN team, technical marketing, and even professional services. ------Duncan lives in the south of The Netherlands in an area called Helmond. This is near the city of [Eindhoven] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eindhoven) , which is known for its association with technology companies like Philips and ASML. ------In the early days of his exposure to virtualization, Duncan was mainly focused on implementations with vSphere. He later would learn about and focus on Site Recovery Manager (SRM) and vCloud Director (VCD). ------Duncan is also a blogger and the sole maintainer of [Yellow Bricks] (https://www.yellow-bricks.com/) . 4:17 – A Focus on Presentations and Public Speaking --------------------------------------------------------- ---Nick mentioned the diversity of Duncan’s experience comes out in his writing and especially in his presentations. Duncan has done a number of public presentations at conferences and user groups. He’s even been the keynote speaker a number of times. We wanted to have a focused conversation with Duncan on presentations through the lens of career progression. ---Nick feels like he heard a story on an older episode of The Geek Whisperers about Duncan’s first public presentation being at a large technology conference with hundreds of people in attendance. ------This is something Duncan would not recommend others do or repeat. Looking back, it was pretty scary and daunting. ------Duncan had been blogging about vSphere High Availability (or vSphere HA) and developed a deep expertise in this area. In parallel, he got to know and built relationships with the product management and engineering teams for vSphere HA. ------A member of the HA team at one point asked Duncan if he would help them create slides or possibly help deliver a presentation on the topic. Duncan agreed to help create slides but refused to do any public speaking. ------“It’s an interesting thing because when they asked me, I had presented before, but it was probably for a group of like 5 or 6 people, more like a group discussion than a presentation. And it usually was with peers as well. Now, just to paint the picture, even when I needed to do that, I would always get extremely terrified. I had a pretty big fear of public speaking in general….” – Duncan Epping ---------Many times in high school if Duncan had to deliver a presentation on a specific day, he would call in sick that morning. Duncan would get so nervous about the presentation it would make him physically sick. ------Duncan worked together with one of the lead engineers for HA at the time and contributed slides highlighting best practices. They split the work roughly 50/50. ---------Once the slides were created, the two of them went through and highlighted the talking points. Duncan shared the things he would highlight if he were discussing the topic with a customer. ---------The engineer told Duncan it made more sense for him to deliver the slides he had created on stage during the presentation because he knew them so well. The two of them could be co-presenters. ---------Duncan agreed to think about it but wanted to know how many people would be coming to the session. The engineer estimated about 100 people. ---------“I’ve never done more than 5 people. I wouldn’t even get in front of a classroom with people that I know extremely well, so 100 people for me is insane.” – Duncan Epping, thinking through the chance to present at a conference ------Somehow Duncan was able to convince himself to co-present with the HA engineer at the VMworld conference in San Francisco. ------A few weeks before the presentation was scheduled to take place, Duncan’s co-presenter had to back out of coming to the conference. No one else from the HA team could attend the conference, so the only option would be for Duncan to deliver the presentation on his own. ---------At this point, conference attendees had already registered to attend the session. Duncan agreed to go forward as the sole presenter. ------“I logged in, and I expected to see 100 people, 120 people. But it wasn’t 100 or 120. It ended up being 600+ people that had already signed up. And it got worse because on the day itself the room was actually completely packed. So it was like 750 or 760 people or something like that. You can imagine that if you’re terrified of public speaking and your very first session is at VMworld…and you’re actually in one of the bigger rooms and the room is completely packed that it’s going to be a crazy, crazy experience. So that’s why I said it’s something that I probably would never recommend anyone to do. This is not the order in which you should be doing public speaking in any shape or form, so don’t repeat what I did.” – Duncan Epping ------Thinking back, Duncan feels like the session was probably below average. Attendees rated it ok. They may have come because they read a blog by Duncan or a book he had written. ------Duncan says walking off that stage after the presentation felt horrible, but it taught him something. ------“It was horrible, and I also knew then that if I wanted to do this again, I needed to have first of all a completely different approach. And then secondly, I also knew I would probably need to do this extremely often to get more comfortable at presenting…. It’s not a skill you acquire overnight. That’s for sure.” – Duncan Epping, reflecting on his first public presentation at a conference ---How did Duncan prepare for the presentation once he agreed to do it? ------One thing that stands out for Duncan is not wanting to make any mistakes during the presentation. When people do this, they tend to over-rehearse. ---------“I literally knew every single dot, comma, period on every single slide. I was so overprepared. It’s not like I learned a full script, but it could have been a full script that I learned. So every single slide I knew what to say, when to say every single sentence, when to pause, when to go to the next part, etc.” – Duncan Epping ---------Duncan’s level of preparedness made him even more terrified while presenting. He was afraid he might start forgetting things. ------“Of course you need to rehearse things, but you don’t need to do it 26 times. I would encourage you to rehearse it because if you don’t rehearse it, that first session is going to be a rehearsal for sure, and it’s going to come across as a rehearsal. But don’t do it 26 or 27 times because you’re going to drive yourself completely nuts, and you’re going to get extremely scared that you’ll send up forgetting things. And in the end, people don’t know what you’re going to say anyway, so if you forget something, you can always come back to that point if you want to get that point across. And if it doesn’t really matter for the story, you just skip it.” – Duncan Epping, giving advice on preparing for a presentation ------Duncan put a lot of pressure on himself for this presentation too, feeling it could impact his career positively or negatively based on how it turned out, which only increased the level of anxiety he felt. ---------Many of us might treat presenting at a big conference as a possible career inflection point even while we prepare for it. ---------Duncan shared that around the time of his presentation (12-13 years ago), there were close to 20,000 attendees at the VMworld conference. Being a presenter was a huge deal, and he was invited to present as a subject matter expert. ---------Duncan had been writing a lot of content about HA leading up the event. Material from Duncan’s first book on vSphere HA and some of his blogs on the topic were used to create whitepapers on best practice. ---------“But for me, yeah, it very much felt like if I nail this, if I kill this…and they’re already using my content, for sure they will hire me…. So for me…it felt like that…could be a giant moment for my career. If I nail this and everyone talks about it, I for sure will easily move up the ranks.” – Duncan Epping, on the career impact of delivering a presentation 15:45 – Lessons Learned Then and Later -------------------------------------------- ---How many of the lessons learned were immediately incorporated after the conference, and how many came years later reflecting back on it for Duncan? ------Duncan likes to reflect back pretty quickly after things happen. He gives the example of running and waiting a couple days after the run to think through what happened. ------After the conference presentation, Duncan tried to determine what he did (what worked), what he did not do (what did not work), and how he could improve (why did something work / not work). Much of the advice Duncan will give others is a number of things he learned after his first few presentations. ------When looking back on an event like a presentation, Duncan likes to create something like a best practices guide for refining certain skills moving forward. ------“For me it was fairly straightforward. I knew I wasn’t good at public speaking. I didn’t like public speaking. I didn’t even like speaking in public, and with speaking in public I don’t mean in front of a group of 700 people. Even during a meeting when you’re in a room with 10 or 12 or 15 people, I normally would not be the person raising my hand and then saying something in front of a group. Even if someone would ask a question, and in the group no one would have the answer, I typically wouldn’t even raise my hand and provide the answer if I knew the answer to that particular question. So I was never really comfortable in terms of doing that. And that was also one of the main reasons I forced myself to get comfortable with it.” – Duncan Epping ------Working for a larger company often times affords you the chance to answer a question in front of one or more of your leaders. Being able to answer in those moments (when you know the answer) can raise your profile across the organization. ---------Duncan highlights the importance for each of us in being ready to do this to grow both personally and professionally. ---------Duncan says forcing himself to speak up in meetings and also speaking in public helped him tremendously over time. ---John highlights Duncan’s linkage of fear of speaking to large groups to the fear of speaking up in a group setting / business meeting. Facing one of those fears is closely linked to facing the other fear. ------Duncan had to get used to sharing his ideas in front of a group or audience he didn’t completely know. ------Duncan mentions he would usually be ok speaking up in a small group of other professional services consultants during his time in that role. He knew the people in the group were all at mostly the same level. ------“If you’re in front of a group, you have no idea who is in the audience. So you don’t know what they know, and you also don’t know what they don’t know. Those are two different things. And the same applies in a meeting.” – Duncan Epping ---------Duncan gives an example of being in a meeting with an engineer with deep technical knowledge as well as a CTO or CEO. These kinds of settings made it more challenging for him to speak up. ------The fear in the smaller group was not the same as the fear of public speaking in front of a large group. The latter was about 10 times worse and caused a lot more anxiety according to Duncan. ---------“I just had to force myself to get over the fact that there could be someone in the audience that knows more than you do. And that’s fine. You need to be ok with that. And the other thing that you have to be comfortable with is sometimes saying ‘I don’t know. I’ll get back to you…. I don’t have the answer in this particular scenario, so I’ll get back to you.’” – Duncan Epping ---------This was hard for Duncan to do at the start of his career, but he has no problem with it now. When Duncan does not know, he will be the first one to admit it and is willing to go find the answer to the question someone asked. ------Nick mentions we often feel like it makes us somehow lesser to admit we don’t know something. But admitting it and going to find the answer helps us learn and also helps the person who asked the question learn. ---------Duncan says admitting we don’t know is much better than trying to make something up in the moment that is not correct. ---------Having served on a number of VCDX panels for prospective candidates, Duncan has seen people try to cover up for not knowing the reasons behind their design decisions. It actually made the situation worse. In these moments it is far better to admit you do not know or forgot to document the reason rather than making up a story that is incorrect. ---------“You may as well say that you don’t know, and that’s fine. And most people are ok with that. I’ve never had a situation when someone said, ‘I don’t accept that answer.’ If you don’t know, you don’t know.” – Duncan Epping 22:49 – Writing and Distilling Concepts to the Core --------------------------------------------------------- ---John says maybe we skipped a step. The first step is to become a subject matter expert. Once you become a subject matter expert, you have to determine how to present that information effectively. Duncan has been a blogger, podcaster, written books, and given a number of presentations. What process does Duncan use to learn content, write about it, and then write about it authoritatively? ------The way Duncan learns is by writing things out. He learns how something really works in depth by taking a really long article and trying to condense it into a couple of paragraphs. ------Duncan says this can be the complete opposite of how other people might learn. [Frank Denneman] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/frankdenneman/) might write 60+ pages about NUMA, for example. Duncan likes to distill things down to the core, while Frank likes to get deep into the weeds because it helps with an understanding of the way things work end to end. Duncan’s learning process is the opposite. ------Duncan has written books that take technical topics into a very deep level of detail. But for blog articles, he will try to condense things as much as possible. ------When learning about a new topic, Duncan will try to break things down into smaller parts. A storage system or hypervisor will have multiple components. Duncan would then write down each component and what it does, continuing to break down each component into subcomponents where applicable from there. Once he has all the components, Duncan then tries to put them all together again to describe how the larger system works. ------Duncan says for a long time he assumed this process was the same in other people’s brains but learned that is not the case. His daughter, for example, needed help through the process of breaking down a big concept into smaller components to make an outline for a school assignment. ------Duncan likes to follow the same process in his presentations – starting with an introduction, breaking that into smaller chunks, and at the end bring everything back together. ------“I always feel that especially for a presentation (but the same applies to an article or to a book), you typically have to repeat yourself at least 3 or 4 times before you get the point across. And it has nothing to do with the way you communicate. It’s just the way people process information. That’s what I tend to do in my head anyway, so I may as well use the same outline for a blog post, for a book, or for a presentation.” – Duncan Epping ------John says this matches the pattern we’ve seen of turning information into knowledge. ---------First, writing is thinking. Information we consume is ephemeral unless we process it by writing it down. ---------John mentions this pattern of learning Duncan has shared seems to match the [Zettelkasten] (https://zettelkasten.de/) method of note taking discussed in [How to Take Smart Notes] (https://www.amazon.com/How-Take-Smart-Notes-Nonfiction/dp/1542866502) . ---------We originally discussed this concept of “writing is thinking” with Josh Duffney in [Episode 156] (https://nerd-journey.com/better-notes-better-you-with-josh-duffney-1-2/) if you want to learn more. 28:42 – Think about the Audience -------------------------------------- ---Nick feels like the process of going deep and working to condense a very long article as Duncan does almost writes the presentation for him. Once Duncan has written the couple of paragraphs for a finished article, the content is down to the key points that could be part of a presentation. Did this process naturally happen as a byproduct of the way Duncan writes? ------Duncan feels it happened naturally, and he had done a lot of writing before he started presenting. The writing helped Duncan craft presentations and to convey a particular story. ------In fact, Duncan started writing even before he began his blog, [Yellow Bricks] (https://www.yellow-bricks.com/) . He had a community forum / website all revolving around hard core punk music that contained album reviews, interviews with bands, etc. ------“That writing has always been something that was part of me, and that definitely helps processing information in some shape or form…or think about things in a particular way…and also think about ‘what do people actually want to know about this particular thing?’ Whether that’s a CD / an album or whether that’s a product or a feature doesn’t really matter. You really need to understand what people would like to know….” – Duncan Epping, on writing ------Duncan approaches content creation by putting himself in the shoes of his audience. ------“If I would read this myself, what are the 5 things I would like to get out of it? What should I learn at the end of this conversation? And that applies to both writing a blog article but also when you do a presentation.” – Duncan Epping ------When Duncan is asked to present at an event, the first thing he asks is about the audience for the presentation. It is challenging to present something useful if you do not know the audience. ---------Duncan consistently wants to bring value to an audience if he is presenting, and it’s similar when he is writing. ---------We need to know who our audience is and what we think the audience would be interested in learning. ------“When you write blogs…and it doesn’t matter what the subject is…you’ll quickly find out if it’s interesting or not because people will be reading it or they will not be reading it. And the same applies to a presentation. You can quickly see if people are interested or not. You see it in their faces. You will notice it after the session as well. People will thank you for the content that you delivered, or if it goes completely silent and no one says anything, it probably wasn’t as good as you thought it would be. So you have that fairly quick feedback loop regardless, I think. I think those things are really important. Try to figure out what customers, readers, or listeners would want to consume.” – Duncan Epping 32:34 – An Outline for Presentation Building -------------------------------------------------- ---Does Duncan document and then translate into a presentation or start with slides and filling them out? ------The first thing Duncan likes to do and would recommend others do is figure out a topic or focus area for the presentation. ------Then, within the focus area Duncan will try to come up with 5-7 things to discuss the presentation (i.e. subtopics). The exact number of things matters less than having a list of things to cover within your focus area. ------There will be an overarching theme to the discussion. Duncan gives the example of focusing on vSAN stretched cluster configurations as the broad topic. Within that topic, what would customers be interested in? Some examples might be… ---------The configuration of a stretched cluster ---------Best practices ---------Failure scenarios and how they are handled ------Once Duncan has done the above (selected a topic and some subtopics), he will create an empty slide deck, give it a title, and create sections that align to the items / subtopics he wrote down. ---------For each item (or subtopic), Duncan will create slides to see if it actually makes sense. ------Duncan usually does 4-5 rehearsals once he has finished building a new set of slides. During that first rehearsal, one would notice how well some slides or sections of work or don’t work. This is the chance to rearrange and change the flow if needed. ---------When you work for a technology company like VMware / Broadcom, there are many slides made by product team members to chose from when building a presentation. Duncan will use some slides that others have made but also has to create his own slides. ------Duncan gets asked to do presentations on various topics. It can range from things he’s written about to those he hasn’t. ---------As a Chief Technologist, Duncan is responsible for understanding and shaping the product strategy and roadmap (set of features and functionality)p. Sometimes he needs to create slides for things that don’t yet exist. ---------Duncan mentions creating a slide for a product manager last week based on a feature he requested. In addition to this, Duncan will write the user story for the product teams to better understand how they might implement this feature. ------“Of course it’s 10 times easier to create a slide deck when you’ve already written an article about it because you exactly know what you want to talk about. If you don’t know what you’re going to talk about it’s slightly more complex. But, when you do this on almost a daily basis, it gets a bit easier…. When it’s a presentation in front of a large audience, you need to make sure that slide deck works end to end. Every single bullet point needs to be spot on. But when it’s a meeting with a customer, then I can grab 20 slides, talk through the slides, and then you get to certain areas where you may not have any content but you still get that discussion going. And as a result, it still works.” – Duncan Epping ---------Duncan has learned to be very flexible in what and how he presents in customer meetings. But what enables this flexibility is having a well-prepared deck and focusing on covering the content he is supposed to be covering during the meeting. 37:42 – High and Low Stakes Presentations ----------------------------------------------- ---What if Duncan needs to deliver a presentation to people in different roles or at different technical levels? Does he change the content on the slides, change the way he discusses things and the level of depth, or both? ------Duncan says it depends on how deep the slide deck is. Sometimes the material is really best suited for an administrator, consultant, or architect. Advanced settings, log files, and deep configuration details are near impossible to discuss at an extremely high level. ------Some of the content these days is built so one could use it to speak to administrators, consultants, architects but also to people at a manager level or slightly higher. ---------“In that particular case I may remove one or two slides that are too geeky, but I’ll just keep the higher-level slides which then allow me to talk through the story….” – Duncan Epping, on adjusting the content for the audience ---Duncan mentioned customer meetings as a form of presentation. These atmospheres could be very conversational with the audience. Does Duncan feel more comfortable when a presentation has more interaction with the audience / is more conversational? ------If Duncan is in front of a group of customers and not on a stage, it is much easier. You can sit down, have some coffee, go through a set of slides, and have a conversation. Questions throughout allow you to talk about different areas. ------“But it’s also because of the setting. It’s much more relaxed, right? It’s much different when you’re up on stage and you’ve got 500 people or 2000 people staring at you…. When you do a keynote, and there’s 500 people sitting there, well, you still need to make sure you know your story end to end. And if you mess up, there’s 500 people stating at you. When you’re in a group of 20 people you can always say, ‘let’s take 5 steps back,’ and then it’s not an issue.” – Duncan Epping ------Duncan tells us public speaking is not scary any longer, but he still gets nervous from time to time. ------In having so many discussions over the past 10 years, Duncan is confident he could have a discussion with a customer and feel fully comfortable. This is different than presenting in front of a group. ------John says this is about the stakes of different situations and how bad figuratively or literally falling on your face would be. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---The way Duncan learns by taking a high level concept, breaking it down, and putting it back together isn’t so different than people who decided to take a computer apart to learn how it works as a system. ---Condensing a long article into just a couple of paragraphs can be challenging. It requires summarization and brevity, and it’s really a skill to be able to do this. It is a skill we can use to communicate with people at higher levels within an organization (i.e. our managers and above). ------We can practice this summarization and brevity in our writing, and it will help us in our verbal communication. ------If you are someone who does not feel comfortable speaking up in meetings when leadership is present, try changing the way you communicate by using summarization and brevity. ---If writing is thinking, that is a 100% transferrable skill across different areas. ------You don’t have to write about technology. You can write about anything you are learning. But we can make our writing publicly accessible for recruiters and hiring managers and thus show them how we think. ---If you want to hear more stories about public speaking, check out: ------ [Episode 73 – Journey to Presenting at Conventions with Al Rasheed] (https://nerd-journey.com/journey-to-presenting-at-conventions-with-al-rasheed/) ------ [Episode 74 – Feedback and Career Impacts of Convention Presentations with Al Rasheed] (https://nerd-journey.com/journey-to-presenting-at-conventions-with-al-rasheed/) ------Consider presenting at a user group or join Toastmasters ---------Check out [Episode 230 – A Steward of the Community with Chris Williams (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/a-steward-of-the-community-with-chris-williams-2-3/) to get a perspective from a user group leader who encourages people to present. ---------Toastmasters is also an option to become better at public speaking. Check out [Episode 254 – Train and Teach: A Mixture of Techniques and Concepts with Larry Roberts (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/train-and-teach-a-mixture-of-techniques-and-concepts-with-larry-roberts-1-3/) . ---------If you’re a STEM professional looking for help with public speaking, be sure to check out Neil Thompson’s [Teach the Geek] (https://teachthegeek.com/) program. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

26 Nov 2024

46 MINS

46:54

26 Nov 2024

#296

Ending with Intention: Once a Geek Whisperer with Amy Lewis (2/2)

How do you know when to stop doing something you love? Amy Lewis would say decisions like these require us to be intentional about putting something down so we can pick up something else. Amy is an unapologetic marketer working in the tech industry, and she was once a Geek Whisperer. This week in episode 302 we explore the genesis of Amy’s involvement in The Geek Whisperers podcast. You’ll hear how it all began, how it changed over time, the overarching purpose, and why the show eventually ended. Amy speaks to the need for intention in our decision making, shares advice for those in our industry impacted by layoffs, and we learn how Amy progressed into people management. For the prospective or current people leaders out there, listen closely for some great tips. Original Recording Date: 09-19-2024 [Amy Lewis] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyhlewis/) is the director of enterprise marketing at GitHub. If you missed part 1 of our discussion about Amy, check out [Episode 301] (https://nerd-journey.com/always-a-winger-people-person-and-unapologetic-marketer-with-amy-lewis-1-2) . Topics – Whispering with Intention, Advice for Those Impacted by a Layoff, Pursuing People Leadership, Parting Thoughts with a Geek Whisperers Twist ==================================================================================================================================================== 2:31 – Whispering with Intention -------------------------------------- ---As big fans of [The Geek Whisperers] (https://geek-whisperers.com/) podcast, Nick and John ask Amy how it all began. Nick remembers finding this podcast in 2016 / 2017 and how he couldn’t stop listening. ------The hosts of The Geek Whisperers were Amy Lewis, John Mark Troyer, and Matt Broberg. ------Amy likes to make her own luck and will jump in when she sees certain circumstances. In the case of The Geek Whisperers, Amy feels there was a lot of good fortune. ------John, Matt, and Amy knew of each other and were running similar programs at different companies. ------Amy thinks John and Matt had been talking about a podcast idea and knew each other a little better. Amy remembers first meeting Matt at a VMworld conference. ------The original purpose of Amy, Matt, and John getting together was to talk shop. John had a great editorial vision for what could be a podcast. ------“Everything just kind of disappeared into a group effort. It was magical…. It was just this amazing synergy. And when we first started we really did talk shop. It was a lot of influence marketing. It was about programs we were running. It was a time where influence marketing in a B2B setting was unheard of…. And then there was a moment where we realized so many people were hungry for hearing stories of career, and we decided to pivot. It’s a passion for all of us, and we started to tell the stories that people kind of couldn’t get another way, ask questions that other people might not be able to ask, share stories that we’d overheard or connections that we’d had…. We did what we hoped to do – create a body of work that we hoped would serve a community we really loved and were proud to be part of.” – Amy Lewis ------Nick remembers Amy’s mention of listening back to past episodes of The Geek Whisperers to help herself fall asleep. ---How do you decide to lay something down that you really enjoy and is very successful (i.e. The Geek Whisperers)? ------Amy says they found a natural stopping point in terms of number of episodes and in what year. ------My re-iterates how difficult it can be to produce weekly content. She remembers heavy travel and doing food blogging while still being part of the podcast. ------Amy would help on the editorial side of the show, while Matt and John would often do editing and write show notes. Looking back she wonders how the 3 of them kept it going when they were all so busy. ------“We didn’t want to fade away. We wanted to end strong, and we wanted to do it with intention…. That was a shared agreement with the 3 of us. So we stayed in while we were in, and we all agreed when we were out. And it just kind of speaks I think to the synergy of the group…. We didn’t know what was going to happen day to day. We just really enjoyed talking to each other, and it made sense to record it. Then suddenly it became a thing. And there is some pressure. It was hard. We had hard days and we had days where we were tired and really had to gut it out. And we really kind of found our groove. I don’t know. It just had a natural lifecycle. It would be hard even with retrospect to know. So no, we didn’t know where we were going to end when we started, but we knew when it was time. And I think all of us feel really good about that.” – Amy Lewis, on being part of The Geek Whisperers ---------Amy says they did not know where it would end when they got started, but it is amazing to think about how many people the podcast mattered to. ------John mentions this idea of retiring something while it’s still good. ---------“It’s ok to put something down because it means you get to pick something up…. I think until you make that commitment to symbolically put something down you don’t make space to pick something else up.” – Amy Lewis ---------Amy highlights mentoring a number of women related to maternity leave and how to bring family into their career lives. Going on maternity leave forces hard decisions because life is different before compared to after. This example works well to help people understand they have to choose to put something down to pick something else up. ---------Intention means laying something down and being ok with it. Amy highlights the importance of being intentional when we think through choices. ---Amy says we often feel things happen to us. And right now our industry is being obliterated with layoffs and career choices being made for people. ------Amy mentions she has been part of workforce reductions and understands what it is like. ------“We have to where we can bring intention into our career and life and direction…. It’s important to figure out what you’re going to stop doing so you can start doing something else.” – Amy Lewis ------Part of intention is setting boundaries and understanding our preferences (likes and dislikes). And intention is needed to put something down to allow for picking something up. ------We can’t learn a new skill if we’re too exhausted, for example. ---John says doing things that are valuable probably aren’t easy. To increase your value likely means picking up something else that is difficult. It is almost laughable that we can maintain everything in our lives that is also difficult when we try to pick up something new that is difficult. ------If someone other than you said they were going to do this, you would caution them to reconsider and help that person understand what they are trying to do is not sustainable. ------Amy gives the analogy of a weight lifter at their max and then adding more weight. It’s going to be an injury. ---Amy highlights the finite nature of publishing. After each book, there was a delineated stopping point. After being in online marketing, she feels more like [Sisyphus] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus) pushing a rock up a hill ------“Even if it’s fake, we have to create moments of celebrations and endpoints, and this is the same concept, which…makes tons of sense to us in all other aspects of our lives. But somehow we burn ourselves out in career, particularly in technology…. The joy is there’s always something new, but we’re the ultimate push the rock up the hill. What’s our endpoint? The pixels don’t end. Where is the edge of the internet?” – Amy Lewis ---------Working from home can make it hard to have a defined stopping point. ------Don’t worry – Amy can feel your pushback as you listen to this. ---------“You have to choose for yourself. I strongly recommend it. It’s good for mental health. It’s good for longevity. It’s good for all the things. Decide where some of your parameters are. Decide what wins look like. Decide what the outside edge looks like. And decide very firmly. Be brave. Be bold. Put something down to pick something up.” – Amy Lewis ------John has a team member who speaks about only having a finite number of tokens to spend each day on work and other parts of life. ---------“If you’re not making a choice, a choice will be made for you. Sometimes it’s your body that will make the choice for you.” – John White 14:57 – Advice for Those Impacted by a Layoff --------------------------------------------------- ---“Our best work doesn’t come under duress. It comes in those quiet moments.” – Amy Lewis ------The reason we get ideas in the shower is because we stopped thinking about it. This applies to careers too. This definitely applies to those listening who may be in transition and are thinking about what they plan to do next. ------When a choice is made for you, all you can focus on is what your next choice will be. It could be you want to gain or learn a new skill. Perhaps you want to intentionally take a break. ---------Amy found it very hard to take this advice. ---------In one of her last transitions between roles, Amy negotiated her new job offer so that she had a small gap of intentional time before starting work. ---------You can give something up to get a short break between jobs as part of the negotiation. ---------Amy encourages us to think of things we can control in these types of situations. ---If someone listening has been laid off or lost a job, what are some ways Amy has found to get past the hurt, angst, and shame of such an event? ------“If you think that other people don’t hurt and that you’re broken because you do hurt, just hear me say, ‘it stinks. It always stinks. It is painful grief.’ Don’t try to power through that. Write it down. Say it out loud. Talk to people. But sometimes just the very act of acknowledging and saying, ‘that is terrible and I feel terrible and that makes me feel terrible’ is one of the first things to kind of get through it.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy tells the story of being part of a division that was laid off. Even though they knew it was coming, that event happening was terrible. So many people in our industry are going through this. ------“Know you’re not alone. And know that you’re not weak, bad, or failed. And this is not the end…. Like with any grief process, don’t try to make it be better immediately…. It is going to knock your confidence. It’s going to feel bad. It does feel bad…because at its root, a choice was made that you didn’t get to participate in. And that is terrible.” – Amy Lewis, on advice for those processing a layoff ------For every story of hurt and awful things like layoffs, Amy sees turnaround stories. She appreciates people telling the stories of life after working at a certain company. ------John mentions we often discount the effect of our human emotions as technical people, often expecting ourselves to react to facts instead of giving the grace to ourselves to react emotionally. We can think the emotion reaction doesn’t make sense and spiral out of control. ---------We don’t often realize our bodies have to go through the emotional processing of what’s happened. The facts don’t just win out over everything. ---------Amy mentions the fear people have about the rise of AI or generative AI tools. Code may be deterministic, but human language is non-deterministic. We gravitate toward what is safe and predictable (i.e. the beauty of technology is its deterministic nature). It’s very unsettling to have an illogical thing happen. ---------Amy believes our human ability to make rational choices in irrational spaces implies we will be able to use tools like generative AI without being mastered by them. ---------“The thing that makes us more able to compete is also the thing that’s going to make us hurt.” – Amy Lewis, on being human ---------Amy had a friend who once said, “sometimes you just can’t square it.” ---------When we are people who work and live in worlds of logic, we have to admit things do not make sense. It can be freeing to admit something makes no sense, allowing you to do what makes sense for you. ---------Amy sees people re-skilling and applying for jobs differently. She feels like our industry will rebound. ---------New jobs will likely appear in different ways. How work is going to be will change, and the jobs available will change. ---------“I am an optimist, and I don’t think it’s over. I think we have to decide what’s next.” – Amy Lewis, on the golden age of tech and how our industry looks moving forward ---------John reiterates that there is going to be immediate short term pain when you’ve gone through job loss. It can destabilize one’s identity or hurt your self-confidence. John doesn’t think there is an easy way to look at the macro view in that situation. ---------“Sometimes when you’re in a hole, it just takes somebody else to go, ‘the hole is not bottomless. There’s nobody who is making the hole deeper, and here let me help you understand how to get out of the hole.’ Sometimes you just need to lean on an outside perspective…. I need somebody to tell me everything’s going to be ok so I can just trust that. And that will help me keep on going.” – John White ---------Amy hopes the above can be an outcome of this podcast. If you are employed, reach out to someone who needs that encouragement right now. Amy says she had the benefit of someone reaching out to her with encouragement during a difficult time. ---------“So if you’re somebody who’s feeling ok right now, I would just challenge all of us to reach out to someone who you think may not be. Check in on them, and give them that encouragement. Give away something because you’re going to need it someday…. Nobody rides this ride without hitting the whammies at some point.” – Amy Lewis, on encouraging others ---------Amy is Geek Whispering to us during this podcast. 24:34 – Pursuing People Leadership ---------------------------------------- ---What made Amy want to pursue people management, and how has she helped others determine what they want to do next? ------Amy tells us it feels like people management was inevitable in her career. When we was in publishing, Amy invented an unpaid internship that she later convinced leadership to fund as a role. ------In total, Amy ended up with 7 or 8 interns, and most of them went into publishing as a career after the internship. She was willing to teach them and help move their career forward. Amy tells us she has stayed connected with these folks over time. ------“I think that’s where I first got a taste for connecting people with opportunity. These were incredibly bright people, so I in no way, shape, or form get full credit. But I knew how to open a door, and I really always believe in opening a door where I can.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy became a people manager and a director at the same time and developed a habit of inheriting teams due to various circumstances. ---------She likes managing people and can often see connective tissue where others don’t. ---------Amy shares an anecdote from her time at Solidfire. After coming back from vacation, Amy had been placed in charge of field marketing and was told that her CMO had hired someone new. Though surprising at the time, Amy says it turned out really well. ------People management is hard and is very different from being an individual contributor. ---------“Quickly, whoever reports to you will be better at their job than you, and that is the way it should be. You should help them be better at their job, but that does not mean necessarily on point expertise. They are going to be better experts because they are putting in 8 hours a day. Their seat time will always exceed yours. So you have to genuinely enjoy the HR side, and the HR side is really hard…. It is a hard job. You have to be ready to support people. You have to be ready to do hard things…. If you do not enjoy people, do not do it.” – Amy Lewis, on people management ---------Managers have to deal with people’s personal trauma. This could mean an employee has a family member with cancer, wants to quit, or needs to be fired. Someone once told Amy one of these things is almost always true when you’re a manager. ---------Amy emphasizes the need for managers to take courses, read books, listen to podcasts, and do HR training to gain greater managerial skills. It’s part of the job. ---------If the hard things don’t sound fun for you, people management is likely not for you. We also do not have to manage people to progress in our career. ------As a first time people manager, Amy’s comments resonated with John. ---------It might be more difficult for a high achieving individual contributor to step into the role of people manager because of the temptation to encourage people to do what they did. ---------Amy says sometimes people managers end up competing with the people reporting to them! The people manager has to accept that they will no longer be the expert like their people will. ---------John shares a story of being at a sales kickoff and being required to attend a session on becoming a better technical manager rather instead of a session focused on a new innovation. ------“It is truly putting something down to pick something up.” – Amy Lewis, on people management ---------Amy has had player / coach roles, and these are more like a job and a half with a large team. ---------These kinds of positions require you to make strategic choices about what you will and won’t do. There is no way to do it all. ---------Every company is different, but Amy likes the fact that John’s leadership redirected technical managers to get better at their craft. ---------“We had several of these conversations during the Geek Whisperer days. I applaud folks who tried management and decided they genuinely got more joy in their life from not managing people, and I think that’s ok too. I know plenty of people with successful career trajectories on every single combination of that – people who manage people, people who managed people and stepped out of it, people who never want to manage people and are very open about it. I applaud a world we live in where all those ways of being can be celebrated.” – Amy Lewis ------When Amy first became a manager she was terrified, admitted it, and went to get help immediately. ---------Amy is thankful people were willing to save her from what she did not know. ---------New managers should seek help in the form of a mentor, reading books, etc. Do many things to get help. ---------The new people manager / leader is going to make mistakes and will have to learn how to forgive themselves for it. ---------“I’ve had the fortune of running a few just incredible teams. Teams that give you grace to fail and grow with them is such a gift. So the number 1 thing you can do is build trust. And say what you know and say what you don’t know.” – Amy Lewis ---------When Amy inherited the team at Solidfire, she had never run field marketing, the people knew more than she did, and she had no budget. Amy showed up to the first meeting with that team and was open and honest about what she had and what she didn’t have. She would elevate their work, remove barriers, and established herself as someone the team could be honest with. ---------“From the flip side, if you decide you do this and you get all in…build trust and tell the truth with that team, and encourage them to trust each other. And if people aren’t ready to be in that boat rowing along with you, then help them find the next opportunity.” – Amy Lewis, to those thinking about becoming people managers ---Did Amy have to learn how to do 1-1 meetings with her employees after becoming a manager, or did it come naturally because of Amy’s previous experience? ------Amy says she wanted to hide from it, and she has seen new managers ignore the power of the 1-1. Now, Amy is adamant about having 1-1s with her people. ------Some of the episodes Amy, John, and Matt get asked about the most are the ones with Dom Delfino. Dom is a mentor of Amy’s. ------“One thing about getting a mentor like Dom or any good mentor…they are going to tell you things you don’t want to hear probably immediately…. I knew I didn’t know field marketing, but I thought that somehow being a good human and having good sense was going to save me…. If you prioritize your 1-1s with your people, other things with take care of themselves. You’ll figure the rest out…. I am a story of what not to do. Do not run from your 1-1s. They will catch you.” – Amy Lewis ------Dom Delfino told Amy the most important thing a manager can be doing is having regular 1-1 calls with their employees. ------Amy highly recommends checking out the [Manager Tools] (https://www.manager-tools.com/) podcast series for those just getting started. ---------This podcast covers much of the basics and is a great refresher for anyone, regardless of skill level. John says Manager Tools has been extremely valuable to him as well. ---------The same group also runs a show called [Career Tools] (https://www.manager-tools.com/all-podcasts?field_content_domain_tid=5) , which has a lot of great content on writing your resume, doing a job search, etc. ---------John mentions one of his teachers encouraging him to do the basics better to really progress. It wasn’t about advanced techniques. It was about doing the basics better. ------If you are someone who is between things, you can train for the job you want next. ---------“You don’t have to have a team to train for the team you want to manage. Go in there and listen to it and get yourself ready so that when the opportunity finds you, you’re ready.” – Amy Lewis, on the Manager Tools podcast 37:45 – Parting Thoughts with a Geek Whisperers Twist ----------------------------------------------------------- ---It was Amy’s idea to have a little fun and ask her the familiar closing question from The Geek Whisperers. What’s one thing in career Amy would never do again in her career? ------“I’m such a positive person, but I learn through negative space.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy says don’t move for the title, whether that means relocate, change companies, or both. Avoid letting the appeal of a title lure you somewhere. ---------Being able to make a move does not mean you should make it. ---------Looking back, Amy feels there were a couple of times where she didn’t look carefully enough before making a change. In other instances, Amy took a necessary pause to truly examine if something sounded too good to be true. ---------“One of the things that’s a cheap and easy sell, particularly in this time where things are so chaotic, can be the lure of a high flying title. And I would say the corollary is probably don’t ignore what may sound like a title that’s ‘beneath you.’ Set that aside and really look at the work you’re doing every day and the people you’re doing it with and the people you’re reporting to. So, if you get glamoured, the title is the easiest thing in the world to change…. You will not be made whole by that title…. Don’t ignore or overlook something that you think is beneath you, and don’t get lured by the glamour of something that sounds amazing.” – Amy Lewis ---------Listen to Amy’s analogy about the Moody Café and how it relates to jobs and job titles. ------John says this sounds a lot like career progression isn’t the only thing in the world. We should assess if a particular job is something we should do and if we’ve already spent all our tokens. ---------“Progression can mean what you would like it to mean…. You said it beautifully in terms of consider how many tokens you’ve got, and consider what makes you happy and really fulfills you. Look at the work. Look at the people. Look at the management chain. The title is the most fluid thing of all of it.” – Amy Lewis ---------And remember. you may have to lay something down to progress. ---If you want to follow up on this conversation with Amy, you can contact her: ------On [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyhlewis/) ------On [Threads – @amylewi] (https://www.threads.net/@amylewi) Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Nick thinks “once a Geek Whisperer” might not be an accurate description of Amy Lewis. Maybe it should be more like “still a Geek Whisperer?” ------Nick recently realized while editing this episode that he still had episodes of The Geek Whisperers downloaded to his phone and was able to listen to them again. Amy, John, and Matt had an amazing chemistry that welcomed you as a listener, making you feel like you were in the discussions with them and learning with them. They were also welcoming to Nick when he was a new member of the same technical community. ---The Geek Whisperers as a body of work led to new opportunities for the hosts (Amy, Matt, and John). What the your body of work that makes you stand out? ------Maybe it isn’t a podcast, blog, or video series. How are you making an impact inside your company or outside it whether paid to do it or not? How are you serving others in the same way Adam Grant describes in [Give and Take] (https://www.amazon.com/Give-Take-Helping-Others-Success/dp/0143124986) (the idea of otherish giving)? ------Keep documenting your accomplishments, community service, your hobbies, community service, etc. All of these things can help us build a body of work. If at least the documentation of your body of work is publicly accessible it allows people to see a little bit of who you are before they talk to you. ---When working on a project, remember things have an endpoint. Being intentional means you might have to make the choice to put something down due to circumstances in your life so you an pick something else up. Don’t be ashamed or afraid to keep re-evaluating over time. ------In [Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/succession-planning-delegation-skills-and-technical-ownership-with-max-kanat-alexander-2-3/) , Max tells us he thinks about how he will hand off a project before he starts it. Maybe you don’t think about it at the beginning, but you can regularly re-evaluate your involvement as part of being intentional. ------For another discussion of being intentional, check out [Episode 165 – Excel by Being Intentional with Andrew Miller (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/excel-by-being-intentional-with-andrew-miller-1-3/) . ---If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) for an aggregated list of our most impactful conversations on the topic. ---Amy has also recently launched the Unicorns in the Breakroom podcast with Sarah Vela – a podcast to help you figure out corporate life. ------ [Unicorns in the Breakroom on Apple Podcasts] (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unicorns-in-the-breakroom/id1774518437) ------ [Unicorns in the Breakroom on Spotify] (https://open.spotify.com/show/4rNQfI4FwJe7KIYya5mPBS) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ---Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... 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19 Nov 2024

48 MINS

48:22

19 Nov 2024

#295

Always a Winger: People Person and Unapologetic Marketer with Amy Lewis (1/2)

Who knew leaving publishing might result in a career as a marketer in the tech industry? Amy Lewis was encouraged to pursue a role at Cisco by a career counselor who recognized her unique strengths. Now Amy refers to herself as an unapologetic marketer and a people person. On the soccer field and in her career, she is always a winger. She is focused more on the assist than scoring the goal. In episode 301, Amy shares her early career transition from publishing to marketing for Cisco. We’ll discuss what storytelling is and how it can be used with individuals or large groups of people and how product marketing is about finding connective tissue. Amy also weighs in on online marketing, why she enjoys it, and how she learned to communicate with executives. Listen closely to learn about the impact of having good mentors throughout a career. Original Recording Date: 09-19-2024 Topics – An Intentional Career Change, People Person and Unapologetic Marketer, Social Aspects of Marketing and Storytelling, Skills and Personas, Product Marketing as Connective Tissue, Candid Headlines and Communicating with Executives, Becoming the Interviewer ======================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================= 2:03 – An Intentional Career Change ----------------------------------------- --- [Amy Lewis] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyhlewis/) is the director of enterprise marketing at GitHub. ------She is also known as [@CommsNinja] (https://x.com/CommsNinja) . ---Amy tells us she majored in English and Political Science in school. After a 10-year career in publishing, she wanted to try a new career and landed in technology. ------“Greatly oversimplified, it started with a Commodore 64, and then we wound up here.” – Amy Lewis ---Has the background in English and Political Science been an advantage since Amy got into the tech industry (i.e. experience in multiple different types of marketing roles)? ------Amy says yes and went to a career counselor at the time she wanted to make a career change out of publishing. ------“You have a really interesting skill set. You’re a storyteller, but you understand technology. You see where the world is going…. Cisco needs people like you. Technology needs people like you, people who can tell stories…. Go get a job there.” – Amy Lewis, feedback she received from a career counselor right before she joined Cisco ------Amy tells us no one in her family worked in technology, and she had no contacts in technology. But after blind applying, she landed a role at Cisco. ------Amy leaned into storytelling and making complex things simpler and understandable for others. ------She did not know certain skills would be so applicable in this kind of career change, but she made the pivot at the suggestion of the career counselor. ------Thinking back, Amy doesn’t remember how she found the career counselor originally. ---What made Amy want to leave publishing as a career? ------Amy has been thinking a lot lately about return to office (or RTO as we might call it) because she has been working remotely for many years. She worked in New York at the company headquarters and then would later move away to start a family and work remotely. ---------Amy cites some advice from her mentor Brian Gracely about career limitations when you do not work in the same location as a company’s headquarters. ---------While working remotely for the publishing company, Amy saw a number of people get promoted. She felt at the publisher she would not be able to climb or grow any longer and that a new challenge was needed. It seems like she in many ways was out of new things to learn. ---------During the time Amy worked for the publisher, AWS was still Amazon. ------At the remote office where Amy worked for the publisher, she was in charge of the server closet. In addition to this, Amy had digitized a number of properties for the publisher. ---Did leveling up mean becoming a manager, increasing salary, becoming a team lead, or just taking on new responsibilities? ------Amy tells us it was all of these things. She is a competitive person. ------Amy already had children, knew she did not want to have any more, and felt she could take more chances. ---------Amy needed to be with a stable company that would not fire her while on maternity leave. This is important for any working woman out there, even if left unstated. ---------Amy knew she could get paid more. She also had a director title but could not manage people because she worked remotely. ---------“I was ready to try something new, so I kind of restarted everything…. I’m ten years in. I’ve got a lot of contacts, connections, comfort. I had and raised my kids kind of in that environment, and I chucked it all away and…took a temp to perm contractor role at Cisco to get my foot in the door and try something new.” – Amy Lewis 8:39 – People Person and Unapologetic Marketer ---------------------------------------------------- ---How was Amy’s previous experience looked at coming into the temp role at Cisco? ------Amy started working as part of a content syndication program, which was focused on storytelling. At the time she hit all the right keywords for the role and was going to outpace most everyone else because of her experience. ------After building websites and digital properties at the publishing company, Amy knew the disciplines of content syndication and online marketing well. These areas became her initial focus as part of the role at Cisco. ------Amy describes herself then as someone “not afraid of the server closet and familiar with content.” ------John highlights that Amy was the exact combination of things her employer was looking for at the time (what we might call a unicorn). ------“This is the story of me, but everybody is a unicorn. Everybody’s got a superpower. Everybody’s got something that makes them unique. People say this, and when you forget it, let us all be reminded. Figure out who you are, what you’re good at, what drives you, and best of all, if what drives you is also good for business…and then be unapologetic about it and do it over and over and over again. Because I can either be half as good as somebody else if I’m trying to pretend to be them. Or I can be the very best Amy Lewis in the world.” – Amy Lewis ---------Amy embraced her unique skill set to excel in all of her previous roles and continued to embrace it when she landed at Cisco. ------“I’m a people person. I call myself an unapologetic marketer…. In a traditional publishing company, it was weird to be a marketer there. And in tech, it can feel weird to be a marketer…” – Amy Lewis ------In the publishing industry, Amy built the online marketing department and helped with the website. She worked for a small company and had easy access to the business owner. ---------As a storyteller, Amy finds connection in things that on the surface do not seem connected. ---------Even before Twitter, Amy would connect with people using online bulletin boards like [phpBB] (https://www.phpbb.com/) . ------Amy knows she is uniquely good at watching, listening to people, understanding personas / specific groups of people (i.e. the audience), and turning it into something using her creativity. ---------Amy continues to focus on what she is good at, what she likes, and how it serves the business – the connective tissue. ---------Amy mentioned her company once sold page-a-day calendars to the cat buying audience. ---------“Honestly, a cat lady is as passionate as somebody is about the type of phone they have in their pocket is as passionate about the type of networking gear that they use is as passionate about the software stack they’re engaged with. People are passionate, and it’s about people. I’m a people person.” – Amy Lewis ---Was marketing something Amy learned in school or picked up on the job? ------Many people who are now in marketing had early interests in cults, serial killers, and other dark things. Amy’s field of study required reading all kinds of books on political movements, etc. (which is really marketing). ------Amy mentioned marketers naturally seem to want to know what makes people tick. For her, it’s a combination of technology, how the world works, and natural curiosity. ------John cites recent political cycles that are a merging of political movement and online audience building. Even before the internet, building a social movement was a form of marketing. It was about going to meet people, networking with them, connecting around an idea, and building community. ---------Amy’s example is one of reading about these types of movements and then applying that knowledge in a new area. ------Amy’s mother was an English teacher 17:02 – Social Aspects of Marketing and Storytelling ---------------------------------------------------------- ---Was Amy interested in conversations with other people from a young age or ensuring she could collaborate with others in her work? What about that social aspect of working in marketing? ------Amy started as a Chemistry major but realized she didn’t want to be stuck in a lab. ------“I don’t want that. I want to be front of the house. And I don’t know that I wanted to be on a stage per se, but I knew I didn’t want to be in a lab…just doing lab things.” – Amy Lewis, on the decision to not keep pursuing Chemistry ------Amy even thought about being a lawyer, especially since she had experience as a debater in high school and college, but that did not seem right. ------“The other kind of spoiler alert is I’m an introvert. I may seem extraverted, but I think I shine a lot brighter online…. I can decompress. I can be behind my keyboard. I can go read a book afterward….I think there’s a lot of us like that too.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy remembers a study that claimed more marketers were introverts as opposed to extroverts. Marketers like to observe their surroundings and do pattern recognition from there. ---We may have jumped to the conclusion that storytelling and people a people person necessitates being a 1-1 type of person. Is storytelling more of a broadcast or one to many type of communication? ------Amy thinks people in sales might do better in the 1-1 communication or extraverted world as she calls it. ------Marketers need to be able to make you feel like it’s 1-to-1, 1-to-few, and then 1-to-many or 1-to-masses. Amy has operated at each level without realizing it. ------“I understand how to take people’s interest and passion and connect them with each other into that passion. And that I can apply to a lot of different things.” – Amy Lewis ---------Amy has done this with cake mixes and barbecue to bacon and datacenters. ------Amy likes to take a lot of 1-to-1 observations and consider how much of it is true for 1-to-many and 1-to-masses. Is it connective tissue on a topic? ------Amy says the best thing about working in technology is the constant new set of ideas, connecting people to these ideas, and then connecting them to each other. ---Nick says in this way the eyes are on Amy’s content or her ideas and not necessarily on her like she’s on stage. ------Amy is a late-in-life football player (i.e. soccer), and one of her kids is the goalkeeper. You might think Amy would naturally gravitate to being a striker, but she enjoys being a [winger] (https://jobsinfootball.com/blog/positions/soccer-winger/) . ------“But the longer I play, the more I enjoy being a winger. And it’s so much less about how many goals I score than my assists. That’s the count that I keep in my head on the field. And I think that speaks a lot to my personality. To your point, I like the stories to shine. And I talk a lot about the invisible hand and how do you connect people to things? I don’t have to stand in front of it all the time, and I have found the longer I’m in career the more I really enjoy leading teams, setting people up for success, and…setting the idea up for success.” – Amy Lewis 22:49 – Skills and Personas --------------------------------- ---Nick thinks we can see some of our own skills but will also need help seeing some of them, just like when Amy went to see the career counselor. ------“I’ve often said, if you want to know what you’re good at or what your reputation is, turn and ask the person next to you. It is unbelievable how quick it will be. They will know. Just say, ‘what’s one word that you think when you think about me?’ Other people know what we’re known for before we do.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy has done mentoring throughout her career. She spent 5 years as part of The Geek Whisperers and thinking about careers and has done a lot of mentoring in addition to that. ---------Amy likes to observe people in a setting and offer feedback on their strengths and qualities. She reminds us that this kind of feedback is a gift, and we often forget to ask for it. ---------Going back to the soccer analogy, Amy doesn’t know if the goals will always come, but she can always provide someone else a pass. ------Does it seem narcissistic to ask someone for this kind of feedback? ---------“I like to catch people being great at something. Because they often don’t know, or if they do, it sure feels good to have somebody see it.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy describes a project she did with the team at Dick’s Sporting Goods. Amy took this role at Dick’s Sporting Goods during a time when she was trying to choose between going back to working for a company she really loved and trying something completely different. ---------A mentor of Amy’s encouraged her to take the role at Dick’s, and she followed the advice, eventually building out a team. ---------Amy’s team worked within the Office of the CTO, which previously did not exist. ---------After observing and working with her team for a while, Amy built a slide deck and gave everyone a superpower and a superhero name. The gift Amy’s team gave her back was dubbing her the analogizer. This fits Amy’s method of storytelling – using analogies to “feel” the story and make it relatable. ---------John describes one of the best teachers he had in school and that teacher’s ability to restate the lesson he wanted to teach in the language of the hobby or sport based on a person’s interest. John has tried to emulate this style over the course of his career. ---Amy has been thinking a great deal about personas lately. ------We live in a world where we know social media can feed our confirmation biases. ------When marketers do their job well, they do it to serve a persona. ------“It’s treating people with respect. It’s hearing them. It’s seeing them. It’s asking the question…all those tactics to either by observation or by direct question to get to know somebody and then to land what you’re trying to say. And then, to meet them halfway.” – Amy Lewis, on the marketer’s role serving personas ------We talk about the difference between poor and excellent communicators with excellent communicators coming as far or as close to someone to help close the gap. ---------When communicating with someone and having a disagreement, consider whether you want to be right or you want to stay married. Either choice is a choice. ---------Amy highlights the importance of communication to close gaps and truly understand a persona. ---John highlights internet marketing as being focused on 1-to-masses and can lead to recency bias. Audience categorization can be difficult. ------Amy says this really takes work, and we need to remember what we see in our social media feeds are likely not the same as what others see. ------“If we don’t actively seek a difference of opinion, you’ll never figure out how to close the gap. You’ll only know how to close the gap with someone who thinks and looks and sounds just like you. And I think we all have to work at finding many voices and listening and thinking about our own to offset that recency.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy mentions the emphasis in schools on citation and original content. The education we got is very different than what children are getting now. ------Amy suggests we are raising a generation that is more critical, a group who is aware they are getting recency bias from being inside “the system.” That makes for an interesting group to market to and with. ------John shares a story about the perception of typing as a necessary skill and compares it to the necessity presently to be able to use presentation software (PowerPoint, Google Slides) or understand sentiment from groups through social media. 33:15 – Product Marketing as Connective Tissue ---------------------------------------------------- ---Amy likes to understand where groups can align and the connective tissue between them. ------“Product marketing in some ways is no more than figuring that out…what your value props are and how they connect…to people’s beliefs and needs. That’s what it is. It’s messaging a positioning and then timing.” – Amy Lewis ---John wonders if product marketing is intentionally filled with jargon to foster the feeling of an in crowd who understands the jargon? ------Amy says yes and calls it a tool often used. We discuss “othering” and “inning” in relation to this. ------This likely becomes clearer when looking at commercial marketing where things like toothpaste say something about a personality. ------A product marketer has a bag of tricks. They want to ensure they use product truth and build the messaging in a way that makes people feel they are smarter, ahead of the curve, etc. ------“It can be true and work at the same time.” – Amy Lewis, on product marketing ---Does product marketing fit within a product team or in its own marketing funnel within an organization? ------Amy mentions attending ad speaking at a [Product Marketing Alliance] (https://www.productmarketingalliance.com/) conference recently. ------Someone did a presentation sharing the various titles you can find in product marketing, and it made Amy think about how product marketing can take so many forms. Here’s how she thinks about it: ---------Within technology specifically, there is a broad group that is corporate marketing and a broad group that is product marketing. ---------Product marketing is like a slider bar starting with the product and its specifics and then getting more technical. From there corporate marketing would be more generalized information for the masses such as things that demonstrate thought leadership. ---------Someone passionate about the product and the details may gravitate more toward technical marketing or technical product marketing over general product marketing. ---------Many companies organize based on this principle, and it’s important to have both skill sets. On one end you have deep technical details of a product and working with product management and on the other more thought leadership (and a lot in between). ---------Events marketing, for example, would probably be filed under corporate marketing usually. ---------Corporate marketing has to be somewhat neutral, whereas product marketing will sit inside a business unit or division. Usually field marketing, communications, event marketing, etc. fit within the broader corporate marketing area. ---------In companies with a CMO (Chief Marketing Officer), communications usually will be for both internal and external, which includes public relations. ---------There are probably slight variations on all of the above (i.e. field marketing may be field embedded, etc.). ------At the conference Amy met so many people across so many industries, and they all had the same complaints and problems. ---------For Amy, it was amazing to meet these people and listen to their stories. This helped to combat some of the confirmation biases we discussed earlier. 40:21 – Candid Headlines and Communicating with Executives ---------------------------------------------------------------- ---Our discussion returns back to Amy’s temp to hire role at Cisco. ---Amy talks about this as being a moment in her career. Someone helped turn her badge from red to blue (i.e. full-time). ------As a contractor, Amy was running a specific program and needed to present at a MBR (monthly business review). This is similar to a QBR (quarterly business review). ------At the time, Amy was running a program but wasn’t getting the resources needed despite her attempts. Things were not going well. ------“Either we get resourced and we change this, this, and this…or you should just cu the program. This is not a good use of resources.” – Amy Lewis, reporting the status of a program she was running to stakeholders in an honest and direct way ------This was Amy’s program and had her name attached to it. She was hired almost on the spot. ------Some of the other presenters were not sharing the true story of how their programs were going. Amy calls it a bold move, especially since we often want to protect ourselves. She often tells this story when coaching other people. ------Amy knew at the time this program was not good for the business and wanted to ensure her name was synonymous with understanding what was good and what was not good for the business. *“That’s what a business review should be – whether it’s working, whether it’s…. It showed that I knew what was true and I was unafraid to say what needed to be said.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy likes to emphasize the right kind of metrics and prevent others from focusing on vanity metrics. ---------“Telling those stories and telling people what to demand out of their metrics is part of my personal brand. People know if I show up with metrics, I’m going to know them. They are going to be true, and I’m going to tell you what it means and not just what’s on the paper.” – Amy Lewis ---Nick calls this the other side of the coin. If we’re going to tell someone what they are good at, why not be honest and tell them what they aren’t good at with an assessment of the situation? ------Looking back, being honest in that business review and telling the truth when it was very uncomfortable was a form of storytelling. ------Amy had the business acumen, was curious, could do the work, and proved she could lead a program. This put her back on the path to product marketing. ------John says this is building a personal brand of telling others when someone is not working. ------Amy mentions she is a headline person and has made a career on some catchy phrases that stuck. We can speak truth in a way that softens the blow but also in a way that makes it harder for people to ignore. ------This is marketing at a feedback mechanism. Would you rather be around people who will tell you there’s a problem while you are in the room or talk about it when you are not in the room? ---Amy has mentees that often ask her how to work with executives. ------She gained access to executives from being on social media in the early days when the playing field was more level. Consistently showing up on social media allows us to engage with anyone. ------Amy has interviewed a number of executives over the course of her career based on the nature of her role (i.e. she had a lot of access to them). ------These two things made it very normal for Amy to engage with executives. ------The person who hired Amy full-time at Cisco gave her a business book that discussed the concept of executive inoculation. ---------One simple example of this is when a president doesn’t know the cost of a gallon of milk because they have lost touch with the people. ---------If a business leader has nothing but “yes” people around them, it can lead to executive inoculation. ---------“When you become disconnected…from your persona, from your audience, your business…that’s a danger. There are always going to be executives that wish to stay inside that bubble….” – Amy Lewis ---------The majority of executives Amy has worked with appreciated honesty. We should be thoughtful in our choice of language, stay true, and “bring the receipts” (or the proof) as Amy says. ---------“You can say hard things if you say them nicely, if you’ve built trust, and if you bring the receipts with you.” – Amy Lewis 48:42 – Becoming the Interviewer -------------------------------------- ---Was the interviewing something Amy had done previously and something she needed to apply to an executive audience, or did she have to learn interviewing on the job? ------Amy is thankful for mentors like the person who hired her at Cisco as well as [Brian Gracely] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/briangracely/) of [TheCloudCast] (https://www.thecloudcast.net/) . ------“Though the story sounds good now, what I didn’t know could fill an ocean.” – Amy Lewis ------Amy worked a few cubes down from Brian, and he was willing to help her learn many things. ------Amy came up with the idea of [Engineers Unplugged] (https://www.youtube.com/user/engineersunplugged/videos) , and it was almost like a gameshow / competition with 2 engineers and a whiteboard. ---------“Once more I come up with a headline, and I write the story around it…. I had zero percent experience on camera before Brian Gracely challenged me to get started. And then I just took natural curiosity / extreme nosiness and put it to work. I thought if I’ve got the microphone, how can I serve the audience? How can I ask the questions that everybody wants to know?” – Amy Lewis ---------Through this exercise, Amy had to get comfortable with being on camera. ------To this point Amy had not interviewed people but had plenty of practice public speaking. She did debate in high school and college and has given speeches to small audiences and those up to 3000 people. ---------“In some ways it almost felt like interviewing easier because I’m trying to make them successful…. And I’m always a winger on the soccer field…. I’m there holding the microphone to make them look good and feel comfortable.” – Amy Lewis Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Being a winger in our careers doesn’t sound so different than being a mentor. Amy talked about seeking mentorship during different times in her career and now mentors others. If you’ve never worked with a mentor and don’t know what to expect or how that relationship should work, go back and listen to these episodes with Dale McKay: ------ [Episode 288 – Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/guardrails-for-growth-a-mentors-experience-with-dale-mckay-1-2/) ------ [Episode 289 – Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/enhance-your-personal-brand-feedback-as-a-catalyst-for-change-with-dale-mckay-2-2/) ------May you be blessed with at least one great mentor in your life! ---Amy has recently launched the Unicorns in the Breakroom podcast with Sarah Vela. You can find a discussion with thoughts on return to office mandates in episode 1 of the show. ------ [Unicorns in the Breakroom on Apple Podcasts] (https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/unicorns-in-the-breakroom/id1774518437) ------ [Unicorns in the Breakroom on Spotify] (https://open.spotify.com/show/4rNQfI4FwJe7KIYya5mPBS) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ---If you’ve been impacted by a layoff or need advice, check out our [Layoff Resources Page] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . ... 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12 Nov 2024

54 MINS

54:45

12 Nov 2024

#294

Patterns of Iteration: Celebrating Three Hundred Episodes of Career Podcasting

What can you learn from 300 episodes focused on career progression in technology? This week we’ll remind listeners of our show’s mission and share the origin story of the podcast. Listen closely for the lessons we’ve learned, the patterns we have seen in our discussions and guests, the feedback we want to hear from listeners like you, and some recommended episodes if you want to dive deeper in specific areas. As part of episode 300 we’re also announcing the recent creation of our layoff resources page that you can find at [nerd-journey.com/layoffresources] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . This is a curated list of our most impactful discussions on layoffs with HR professionals, career coaches, burnout experts, entrepreneurs, and technologists like you. It’s been put together in a specific order to help you process layoff events, get practical tips on moving forward, and learn from the experiences of others. Original Recording Date: 10-26-2024 Topics – Restating Our Thesis, The Origin Story and Motivations, Lessons Learned, Trends and Patterns, Key Ideas and Books, Progressing as an Individual Contributor, Management as a Career, Looking at the Future =================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 1:01 – Restating Our Thesis --------------------------------- ---Welcome to episode 300! ---We wanted to start by restating our thesis for the show, especially for anyone who might be a new listener to the show. ------We (John and Nick) are focused on serving the technology professional with the goal of bringing to light information on career progression and expansion that we did not know when we worked in IT Operations. We’re looking to answer questions like: ---------How do I find a new job if I’ve just been laid off? ---------How do I get better at my job? ---------How do I change job functions within the organization I’m in? ---------How can I change organizations / companies? ---------How do I gain recognition? ---------How do I progress in general in my career? ---------What are the different roles that exist under the technology umbrella that I might be qualified to do? ------We’re extracting the patterns from stories of technologists not so different than you. Our guests have either worked in technology or have a unique perspective on the industry or trends within it. Releasing our discussions in multiple parts allows us to go deep into details and extract those patterns of the different ways one could go about accomplishing some of the aforementioned goals. ---------We also want to educate listeners on how many roles are possible under the technology umbrella as a whole and how you might be qualified for more jobs than you thought. You’ll hear us discuss relatable experience quite a bit on the show. 3:46 – The Origin Story and Motivations --------------------------------------------- ---Right before Nick started a new job in late 2017 (that John had referred him for), John suggested the two of them start a podcast. ------At first, Nick wasn’t sure what he would say on a podcast, but he said yes. ------John says in the beginning neither of them was clear on what the podcast was about yet. ---------Based on his experience at a distributor and a technology vendor after being in IT Operations, John felt there were paths and roles that people did not know about that could result in greater pay. He thought they should publicize it and talk about different ways to accomplish it. ---------They also had other ideas like sharing details of the solutions their employer (a technology vendor) was releasing. John remembers recording several episodes on these topics that were never published. Nick recalls some of their first intros using the words “IT news and opinions based on our points of view.” ---------John and Nick didn’t think they could make an impact by just talking about the technology and promoting it. Many others were doing it. ---------“I think a lot of the career stuff just bubbled up to the forefront. We found the reason later on. It just got to be more and more clear that that part of it was the only thing that we should really focus on.” – John White ---------Nick says we have to talk about technology a little bit, but it wasn’t about the nerdy parts of the tech itself. It was more about how working in technology and focusing on it changed someone’s career, how they progressed, etc. ------------Nick had no idea there were so many different roles one could have when they started the podcast. ---------It seemed important to not only educate people on different technology focused roles but also talk about the process of applying for those types of jobs. ------Nick and John worked together earlier this year to revise the podcast description. It was kind of right, but over time the theme had crystalized even more so than what was previously written in the description. ---------This is also part of the reason you see “Career Advice for the Technology Professional” in the show’s title now. ---------While we are not paid to give career advice, we sure do love continuing to learn on this topic! ---If you hear ads when you listen to our show, they are NOT from us! We’ve never used ads. ---Our costs for the podcast center more on time spent than money. Hosting costs and other subscriptions isn’t a huge expense. It did not seem realistic to monetize in a way that would offset the cost of our time, so we didn’t do it. ---What is it we hope to get out of the podcast if it isn’t money? ------For John, the payback is more about exposure to guests, hearing their interesting stories, and knowing listeners are finding the models our guests are presenting valuable. One model is coming from a nontraditional background to work in technology. We’ve figured out that there is no “traditional” background. ------Nick highlights the fantastic people we’ve met as we’ve heard their stories. For Nick, the podcast helps him in addition to helping other people. ---------We talk to people before and after we interview them and try to keep up with how they are doing. ---------Nick says when you edit the show, you get to listen to the advice given in episodes multiple times. ---------“Selfishly, I like doing it for me…. If it helps me, my hope is that it helps other people too.” – Nick Korte 11:43 – Lessons Learned ----------------------------- ---Nick has found that you will make time for the things you like and enjoy. In fact, he and John recorded episodes while he was on vacation in Galveston right before the show launched. ------Nick recounts editing the podcast on cruise ships, in the passenger seat of a car while on a road trip, in hotel rooms, and of course, at home…all out of an unwillingness to miss a release. ------John had some major life events happen at different points like buying his first home and having a child which required him to step away from the show. The first time this happened, Nick had to learn how to edit. ------Nick’s wife and daughter know how much he loves doing the podcast and support him in it. They know that weekends are for podcasting and editing. He is only able to do this because of their support. ------If you plan to do something like this (start and maintain a podcast), make sure you have the support to do it. ------A podcast takes time, and when you begin you will not be fast at any of it. Nick feels like he and John have improved in the questions they ask, their prep, and hope the quality of the show has improved over time. ------Hopefully the findability of the show has improved over time with iterative improvements on the show’s description and metadata. Nick wishes they had done this better as the theme became more crystalized. ---------John thinks maybe we would have been better at this part if either of us had marketing backgrounds. ------With the experiences being part of technical communities in the past and being in pre-sales for a while, Nick is not shy about asking people to be on the show if they have a great story. Neither is John. ---------It has not been hard to get people to say yes once we do the prep work and share what we’re trying to do. ---------“You don’t know when and where, but somebody’s going to be helped by hearing your story. I think people want to be able to help, so it’s finding people that have that compelling lesson that’s embedded in their story.” – John White 16:02 – Trends and Patterns --------------------------------- ---Some things we have seen have changed over time, while some have been timeless. ---The strength of the job market has varied over time. ------Right now, in late 2024, the job market is difficult, and we are seeing many layoffs in the tech industry. There are many reasons behind this – consolidation, interest rates, etc. There are still jobs open, but it’s a challenge when thousands of people have lost their jobs so close together because it might mean high competition amongst a large candidate pool. ------In 2021, it was a very hot job market with tons of hiring, making finding candidates difficult. ------As time goes by, the place we are in the job cycle changes quite a bit. John says it’s been interesting to hear our discussions during both a hot job market and a difficult job market. ------If you are worried about layoffs or have been impacted, Nick mentions the recent creation of a layoff resources page you can visit at [nerd-journey.com/layoffresources] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffresources/) . You will see the title of “What Can I Do in Response to a Layoff Event?” This is a curated list of some of our most impactful conversations on the show about layoffs given to you in a specific order to help process the event and understand what you can control. ---------You’ll hear from business psychologists, burnout experts, career coaches, entrepreneurs, and technologists. ---John mentions some discussions we’ve done on the best practices in searching for a job. One example is accepting interviews even when you’re not actively seeking a new role to gain practice. Specifically, this is practice when the stakes are very low. ------Taking an interview may help you learn about a really interesting opportunity. ------John encourages listeners to know why they are staying at a particular employer. Staying at your current employer has to be better than making a move for you to stay. ------We’ve talked about considering the type of company to work for and the role you would like to have, keeping them in generalities instead of specifics. ---------Consider the type of work you would like to be doing, the environment in which you would want to work, the types of co-workers you would want, how all of this might make you feel, etc. ---------The above goes back to concepts we discussed in [Episode 19 – Process over Outcomes and Dreaming in Bands] (https://nerd-journey.com/episode-019-process-over-outcomes-and-dreaming-in-bands/) ---We have also done past episodes on resume construction. While we do not council people on resume writing for a living, we have written several of our own. Here are some recommended episodes from our foundations series that might help you (each contains links in the show notes to other helpful resources): ------ [Episode 203 – Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-resumes/) ------ [Episode 204 – Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-the-job-search/) ------ [Episode 205 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-1/) ------ [Episode 206 – Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-2/) ---We’ve discussed interviews and explained the goal of an interview, which John mentions is not always obvious. ------When John worked for Google he conducted many interviews even though he was an individual contributor. Much of it was to evoke how people think and solve problems. ------We have also done episodes covering the different types of interviews like those with a recruiter or hiring manager, a technical screen, a vibe interview with a leader, etc. ------There are also many great interview stories people have shared throughout the years. In the interview, we want to be able to tell our career narrative. This is something Jason Belk shared with us in [Episode 284 – Draft Your Narrative: Writing and Building a Technical Portfolio with Jason Belk (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/draft-your-narrative-writing-and-building-a-technical-portfolio-with-jason-belk-2-2/) . One of the days we build a narrative is documenting our work and showing our work so we can speak about it with others. ---------Telling your narrative is not something a person can do if they haven’t thought about it! ---------How did your experiences change the way you think and solve problems? ---------“You need to think about it ahead of time and then construct it and then practice telling that story. And then revisit that because you’ll change. And then your perspective on the past will change also.” – John White, on career narratives 24:09 – Key Ideas and Books --------------------------------- ---We’ve compiled a list of ideas listeners need to consider / think about as they start to focus on career progression (i.e. getting better at your current job, becoming a higher performer, etc.). ------Proof of Work ---------This goes along with the book [Show Your Work] (https://austinkleon.com/show-your-work/) by Austin Kleon. This is a short and very digestible read containing stories about the power of documenting your learning, being a beginner, sharing your experience, and how it can help your career. ---------One practical implementation of this is blogging about learning a specific topic. ---------Kleon’s book makes a compelling case for learning in public, which means documenting the learning in some way so you can tell that career narrative we spoke about earlier. ------Turn Information into Knowledge ---------This came to us via a book recommendation from previous guest [Josh Duffney] (https://nerd-journey.com/tag/josh-duffney/) . Josh spoke about what he had learned after reading [How to Take Smart Notes] (https://www.amazon.com/How-Take-Smart-Notes-Nonfiction/dp/1542866502) by Sonke Ahrens, which is often called [Zettelkasten] (https://zettelkasten.de/) (a knowledge management system). ---------Be sure to check out our full discussion with Josh in [Episode 156 – Better Notes, Better You with Josh Duffney (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/better-notes-better-you-with-josh-duffney-1-2/) where you will find links to a book Josh wrote called How to Take Smart Notes in Obsidian. ---------John says this methodology has revolutionized how he works. It’s part of showing your work but also a way to keep track of things you know. We can take notes on what we are learning and then formalize our thoughts into our own words, putting them into a system that allows you to create connections between concepts you have learned. It becomes knowledge once it is in a system that allows retrieving it, taking action on it, and then publishing it. ---------Nick feels he could improve in note taking to make it more like the smart notes methodology. ---------John mentions this is less about full adoption and more about being exposed to the idea and trying to implement it in some way. There is no perfect way to do it! ------Improve Your Ability to Do Complicated Knowledge Work ---------This point is based on [Deep Work] (https://www.calnewport.com/books/deep-work/) by Cal Newport. We recorded a 7-part discussion series on this book starting with [Episode 141 – Book Discussion: Deep Work, Part 1 – The Why] (https://nerd-journey.com/book-discussion-deep-work-part-1-the-why/) and ending with [Episode 147 – Book Discussion: Deep Work, Part 7 – Become Hard to Reach] (https://nerd-journey.com/book-discussion-deep-work-part-7-become-hard-to-reach/) . Episode 147 contains links in the show notes to all discussions in the series. ---------John feels the series of episodes we did stand out as an example of how to take smart notes as applied to the deep work concept. Even just listening to our first episode in the series will give you an idea of what the book is about and an overview of the concept of deep work. ---------This book is an example of why it’s important to be able to do complicated knowledge work and the things you need to do to be good at it. There are other books Cal Newport has written that Nick and John have also read. Cal Newport also has a [podcast] (https://www.thedeeplife.com/listen/) that is quite good. ------Incremental Improvements ---------One of the first books we came across here was [Switch: How to Change Things When Change Is Hard] (https://www.amazon.com/Switch-Change-Things-When-Hard/dp/0385528752) by Chip and Dan Heath. Another book many people have recommended in this space is [Atomic Habits] (https://www.amazon.com/Atomic-Habits-James-Clear-audiobook/dp/B07RFSSYBH) by James Clear. ---------The idea is making small improvements and building upon those improvements, which includes shaping your environment so you can do it well. ---------These overlap a little with the concepts Cal Newport spoke about in Deep Work. ------Making Big Bets on Technology Waves ---------While there is no specific book here, it is a corollary to the above ideas. We’ve seen this pattern happen with a number of guests. ---------When Nick thinks of guests who have talked about technology waves he thinks of several episodes – [Episode 80 – Certification and Mentoring with Manny Sidhu] (https://nerd-journey.com/certification-and-mentoring-with-manny-sidhu/) , [Episode 188 – The Surfer of Technology Waves with Joe Houghes (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-surfer-of-technology-waves-with-joe-houghes-2-3/) , and [Episode 184 – Dive Deeper and Enjoy the Process with Michael Levan (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/dive-deeper-and-enjoy-the-process-with-michael-levan-2-2/) . Also check out [Episode 264 – Back to Basics: Technology Bets and Industry Relationships with Brad Christian (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/back-to-basics-technology-bets-and-industry-relationships-with-brad-christian-2-2/) to get Brad Christian’s take on making technology bets. ---------Manny Sidhu was the first one to bring up this idea. He came across virtualization in the early days and decided to go all in. The foresight to do that early on can be powerful in your career, but there may be ways to do it which are not as large of a risk. ---------If someone made a bet on blockchain a few years ago, it hasn’t played out just yet. Think about containerization and generative AI and how they will continue to change over time. Will you place a bet and position yourself within one of these trends? ---------Should we talk to more people about how to evaluate technology waves and the smart way to make a bet on a wave? ---------People often want to know where to place their focus to gain new skills and be valuable in the market. It’s a difficult problem to solve. ---------Making a completely safe bet on a technology wave might mean you are late to place your bet. 34:40 – Progressing as an Individual Contributor ------------------------------------------------------ ---Another trend we’ve seen is progressing to a high level individual contributor, which we might refer to as becoming a principal engineer. The principal level is one of the highest job levels for individual contributors with things like distinguished one step higher. We’ve spoken to guests about what it takes to achieve the principal title and what it means to have the title in our industry. ------A typical progression for an individual contributor might be systems engineer to senior systems engineer to staff systems engineer to senior staff systems engineer to principal systems engineer, etc. But this progression may look different inside the organization where you work! ------This is a leadership track but not a management track. High level individual contributors like principal engineers often work on problems with a broad scope within an organization and sometimes outside the organization. It’s about technical depth and breadth but also developing other people too. ------John highlights the principal as someone who can bring their knowledge to a project and then hand it off to someone. ------The discussions about the principal title are some of Nick’s favorite. Recommended episodes for learning more about the principal engineer would be: --------- [Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/succession-planning-delegation-skills-and-technical-ownership-with-max-kanat-alexander-2-3/) --------- [Episode 287 – Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/scope-creep-evaluating-impact-in-career-decisions-as-a-principal-engineer-with-max-kanat-alexander-3-3/) --------- [Episode 242 – Modalities of the Staff and Principal Engineer with Ken Collins (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/modalities-of-the-staff-and-principal-engineer-with-ken-collins-2-2/) --------- [Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/pause-and-step-outside-with-andrew-miller-3-3/) --------- [Episode 152 – The Theme of Your Career with Scott Lowe (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-theme-of-your-career-with-scott-lowe-1-2/) --------- [Episode 153 – Creating a Full Stack Career with Scott Lowe (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/creating-a-full-stack-career-with-scott-lowe-2-2/) --------- [Episode 170 – Signal What You Want with Joe Chenevey (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/signal-what-you-want-with-joe-chenevey-1-2/) --------- [Episode 171 – Coaches as Mindset Curators with Joe Chenevey (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/coaches-as-mindset-curators-with-joe-chenevey-2-2/) --------- [Episode 185 – Make Accommodations for Success with Phil Monk (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/make-accommodations-for-success-with-phil-monk-1-2/) --------- [Episode 186 – The Unassuming Architect with Phil Monk (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-unassuming-architect-with-phil-monk-2-2/) 37:45 – Management as a Career ------------------------------------ ---This has been a trend we’ve seen. If you want to be a manager, what do you need to prepare yourself for, and what is the job of a manager? ------We’ve had discussions about the differences between managers and the technical lead of a team. ------There’s also the concept of the player coach where someone might be partially a people manager and still have individual contributor responsibilities. ------John has made the transition to people manager from individual contributor. He shares that there is a 30% or so crossover of skills. ---------“Being a manager just is a whole new set of…very technical skills that don’t have anything to do with being that individual contributor.” – John White ---------John says there are companies who have developed philosophies that management can be a skill applied to any team, even if the skills of the team are different than your skills when you were an individual contributor. ------We have also seen people move from manager back to individual contributor. It’s not necessarily a step down and might be right for you based on specific timing in your life. John says it’s just a different job. ------If you’re listening to this and are thinking about becoming a people manager, check out these episodes: --------- [Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/an-array-of-decision-points-with-tim-crawford-2-2/) --------- [Episode 252 – Management is War with Russell Swinney (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/management-is-war-with-russell-swinney-1-2/) --------- [Episode 253 – Building Trust as an Interim Leader with Russell Swinney (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/building-trust-as-an-interim-leader-with-russell-swinney-2-2/) --------- [Episode 238 – Managers as Culture Keepers with Leanne Elliott (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/managers-as-culture-keepers-with-leanne-elliott-2-2/) --------- [Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/uncovering-empathy-the-greatest-skill-of-an-inclusive-leader-with-marni-coffey-1-3/) --------- [Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/change-management-the-hardest-leap-and-developing-people-with-marni-coffey-2-3/) --------- [Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/) ------For more on the player coach role, check out [Episode 231 – It Comes Back Tenfold with Chris Williams (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/it-comes-back-tenfold-with-chris-williams-3-3/) . 41:52 – Looking at the Future ----------------------------------- ---We would like your feedback on this we should be doing more of and less of. Please send any comments to [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) . ---Who should we be interviewing? ------More practitioners / people who don’t work for tech vendors, resellers, or distributors? ------Are there roles we haven’t covered that we should be like venture capitalist, procurement personnel, or platform engineer? ------Do you have a recommendation for someone who should be on the show? We will take that and run with it. ------Do we need to interview people in new, interesting verticals? ------Are there specific types of companies you want to hear about? ---If you’ve heard one episode that has been valuable to you at any point, please take the time to rate the show 5 stars. ------What did you find helpful about a show you listened to? Please share that and tag us on social media. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

05 Nov 2024

45 MINS

45:12

05 Nov 2024

#293

Chronic Stress: Connecting the Dots between Layoffs and Burnout with Cait Donovan

Recent episodes and tech industry layoff trends made us wonder – is there a connection between layoff events and burnout? And if there is, are there differences in how burnout shows up in people impacted by layoffs, in those who remain, and in leaders? In episode 299 burnout expert, coach, keynote speaker, and podcaster Cait Donovan returns to help us connect the dots. We start by defining burnout and building up from there. You’ll hear thoughts on chronic stress, emotional processing, burnout risk factors, and burnout protection factors. Cait also reminds us that there is a distinct line between managers and employees that has become very blurry in the workplace. Original Recording Date: 09-28-2024 Topics – Defining Burnout, Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout, Emotional Toil and Processing, Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers, Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections, Burnout in Leadership, Boundaries and Closing Thoughts ================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:08 – Defining Burnout ----------------------------- --- [Cait Donovan] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/caitdonovanspeaks/) is a burnout expert, a coach, and a keynote speaker. She is also the host of [FRIED: The Burnout Podcast] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/) . ------Cait was a practicing acupuncturist for 15 years and then burned out. She would later pursue a degree in biobehavioral health to understand what stress does to our bodies. ------Cait spends her days podcasting, keynote speaking, and doing corporate training. She’s also working on a second book. Be sure to check out Cait’s first book, [The Bouncebackability Factor: End Burnout, Gain Resilience, and Change the World].(https://www.amazon.com/Bouncebackability-Factor-Burnout-Resilience-Change/dp/1735194905). ------If you missed the previous episodes we recorded with Cait, check out: --------- [Episode 214 – Across the Patterns of Burnout with Cait Donovan (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/across-the-patterns-of-burnout-with-cait-donovan-1-2/) --------- [Episode 215 – The Beautiful Right Turns with Cait Donovan (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-beautiful-right-turns-with-cait-donovan-2-2/) ---What is the definition of burnout? ------Cait likes to start with the [World Health Organization (WHO) definition of burnout] (https://www.who.int/standards/classifications/frequently-asked-questions/burn-out-an-occupational-phenomenon) . Burnout by their definition is an occupational hazard / phenomenon (neither a mental nor a physical health diagnosis). According to WHO, there are 3 components to burnout that must all be present: ---------Physical and emotional exhaustion ---------Cynicism and detachment ---------Feeling a lack of productivity or lack of impact related to your work ---------The above is a little generic and only deals with the workplace. Cait has found chronic stress is more pervasive than just the workplace and has much to do with how we were taught to interact with the world, which may impact many areas of our lives. ------Cait’s definition of burnout is “chronic stress that has led to a decline in functioning of your body, mind, soul, spirit…over an extended period of time so slow that you didn’t notice it happening until it was like, ‘where did I get here? What am I doing? What is this life, and why am I so miserable?” 5:00 – Connecting Dots between Layoffs and Burnout -------------------------------------------------------- ---Many people are looking at the tech industry right now, see the layoffs happening, and they get worried / anxious / scared. After recording other layoff focused episodes with Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson from [RealJobTalk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) , we thought it would be interesting to explore this topic with Cait through the lens of how this trends up or down with burnout. ------Be sure to check out [Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/reduction-in-force-navigating-layoff-trends-in-tech-with-real-job-talk-1-2/) and [Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffs-and-job-market-impacts-experience-with-rifs-preferred-with-real-job-talk-2-2/) . ---Think about the person seeing the layoffs from afar (reading about it, knowing people who have been impacted). Can anxiety from seeing this kind of thing be enough to start you down the burnout path? ------Cait says not on its own, and she highlights [Burnout Risk Factors (BRFs)] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-risk-factors-a-holistic-view) and [Burnout Protection Factors (BPFs)] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-protection-factors-bpf-s) . ------Many of the burnout risk factors (BRFs) have nothing to do with a person’s current situation. They can be genetic or [epigenetic] (https://www.cdc.gov/genomics-and-health/about/epigenetic-impacts-on-health.html) , from culture, from propaganda, or other things happening to us for large portions of life. ---------We often have very little control over how we might interact with these things unless we have been intentional in our awareness of such risk factors. ---------Genetics represent a more stable risk because they aren’t going to change. Epigenetics is a different story. ------If someone has a large number of risk factors (BRFs) and a small number of protective factors, a layoff could throw them over the edge. Because burnout is the result of a long period of chronic stress, a layoff event may not be chronic enough at the moment to be a cause of burnout (perhaps a low contributor). ---Consider people who have been impacted by a layoff. Since Cait does a lot of coaching, what does she see happen in this situation? Do people often find a layoff is a realization of being burned out and feel relieved, or can it be the event that triggers burnout in someone? ------Cait says both of the above are possibilities based on perception and a number of other factors. ------"…If people already know that they’re burnt out, a layoff is like the best thing that ever happened to you. You’re…so grateful because you were never going to make that choice by yourself…. There are so many reasons we stay in jobs that no longer suit us. But if you are in a job that no longer suits you and you get laid off and you don’t have to be the one to end the relationship, it’s a relief…. Probably for the first time since a free summer when you were like 12 you’ve got 2, 3, maybe even 6 months of paid time off…. So for some people this is a really big relief. " – Cait Donovan ---------In a layoff situation there is normally some kind of compensation or severance package associated with it. ------Some people might not be aware of being on the edge of burnout. If the layoff happens at the same time as several other stressful events (a family member gets a discouraging health diagnosis, etc.), it can eliminate any sense of stability even with the money one would get in a severance package. ---------“This eliminates a sense of stability that they don’t have enough of right now anyway and can really cause people to stumble.” – Cait Donovan ------Cait says we need to remember people are holistic systems as we talk through this. ---Nick thinks if we add in a tough job market, maybe the scales tilt toward burnout being a result of the sudden layoff event. ------Cait has a number of clients who work in technology, and several of them have lost their jobs. ------Statistics seem clear that long term artificial intelligence will create more jobs than it replaces. If we know this is coming and are given time (because of a layoff), we should consider using that time to make ourselves more attractive to the needs of employers. ------While there are no guarantees, Cait has seen people approach this in a couple of ways: ---------Learn what is coming next so make yourself more marketable moving forward. ---------Some people lose interest in working in the field entirely. Cait gives the example of one client seeking to become an artist. Perhaps there are other ways to use your skills and your hobbies and continue learning. ---------“So, if you are not already in this crazy situation where the layoff makes you sort of break down, there’s actually a huge amount of possibility for tech workers moving forward…. Tech work over…especially the last 5ish years has been so intense…. It had to pop at some point. So here we are. It’s popping. We knew this was going to happen. It’s now here. And the question is what do you want to do moving forward? …I do believe that there’s a huge amount of opportunity in this world. It’s just different than what it has been.” – Cait Donovan ---------Cait also says if you need to take the time you are given to sit on the couch and rest, take the time. It’s ok. There’s no mandate that says you have to decide what to do right away. 13:14 – Emotional Toil and Processing ------------------------------------------- ---Nick thinks there’s a step before the above to process the emotional toil of a layoff event. How is Cait helping her clients with this? ------Cait says some people are relieved. Actually, most people are relieved. ------If someone had this happen and was not relieved, Cait would help them focus on what is under their control. ---------Start with writing a new resume / cv based on what you know. Consider using ChatGPT to help you write a version for a non-technical world / role because it can open your eyes to possibilities you do not immediately see. ---------Take a look at your money and where it’s going to determine if it is serving the life you want. Pull back from spending in areas that are not serving the life you want to remove added pressures. This is a great time to figure out what your actual needs are. ---------Looking at the money you need to live the life you truly desire ends up being less than people think according to Cait. ---------Do the math, and set yourself up on some kind of budget. Cait has used [YNAB (You Need a Budget)] (https://www.ynab.com/) for her business and finds it really helpful. The tool suggests, for example, that you set aside money monthly to be able to pay for yearly expenses when they arise. ---------“A lot of times that’s a fear and a safety area that we can add some sense of safety in by giving people a little more control. Let’s just look at it.” – Cait Donovan, on taking inventory of your money and where you spend it ---------“You’re emotionally processing while you’re doing this because…when you do a cv you’re starting to see…what are the possibilities? What things are available to me? Instead of thinking, there’s nothing left. I’m never going to be able to do anything…. We’re processing that by flipping the script. We’re processing your sense of safety by letting you know where it is or where it isn’t and what needs to really happen….” – Cait Donovan, on processing the layoff ---------Cait shares the story of having two clients who were spouses do the money map exercise after being really concerned about job loss. Both of them lost their jobs, and both of them were fine as a result of doing the exercise (bills were covered). ---------Starting with practical things can be what shifts our emotional state rather than working through an emotion while the stressor is still there. Cait’s suggestion here is to shift the stressor to work through the emotion. ---------Looking through finances is a great exercise for anyone listening. Do it regularly. Cait suggests doing it quarterly. You don’t need a full day if you’re using budgeting software. It takes a glance at where things are. Looking at how much we’re spending across all areas can help us see, for example, that we have too many subscription services and some could be eliminated. ---------Cait loves to read and pays for Kindle Unlimited. While she could use a library system like [Libby] (https://libbyapp.com/) , she loves the convenience of Kindle. It would be one of the first things to go if she needed to trim down subscription spend. 19:32 – Chronic Stress and Capacity Noticers -------------------------------------------------- ---Perhaps there is a similar impact when we take a baseline of stressors. If we don’t have a baseline, we might not know. ------In both group and individual coaching, Cait works with clients on something she calls capacity noticers. ---------“They are really different from person to person…really different. But most people have no idea what their mental, emotional, or energetic capacity is…. So we have to figure out, financially and not – what is my capacity? And where am I overriding it regularly?” – Cait Donovan, on capacity noticers ---------It takes time for people to uncover capacity noticers. ------Cait gives the example of working on a computer and needing to put in eye drops at 11:30 and 3:30. ---------People might think it is just their eyes because they forgot to think of themselves as a holistic system. ---------The above is your body’s cue to rest your eyes a little and take a break. It means your capacity has been crossed. ---Chronic stress impacts you slowly over time, and we make adjustments for it. ------Cait describes a problem that could start with a sore hamstring. ------Suppose someone then leans to their other side for a few days to take the pressure off the hurt hamstring. Maybe this leads to right hip pain and back soreness followed by neck pain and migraines over a span of a couple of months. ---------The root cause was not addressing the overworked hamstring, but it might seem to the person like a migraine, for example, came out of nowhere. ------Cait does not expect people to recognize the small shifts over time, especially for people who burn out. ---------Our bodies are designed to make modifications / work around the small agitations like the pain described above. ---------Cait mentions something called [interoception] (https://magazine.hms.harvard.edu/articles/making-sense-interoception) , which is our body’s ability to feel a need a respond to it appropriately. These needs can be conscious and subconscious (eating when we are hungry, using the restroom when we need to, etc. would be the more conscious forms). When emotions show up the body also responds to them. ---------“In those that experience chronic stress…we tend to have lower interoceptive skill and awareness than other people. So not only does your body modify naturally. But if you are someone who, for whatever reason,…it’s been taught out of you to listen to your body (i.e. your brain didn’t develop in a way that allows you to listen), then you won’t hear any of those things until you’re being knocked over.” – Cait Donovan, on interoception and chronic stress ---------Cait says people who are burnt out should cut themselves some slack because it isn’t their fault that they did not notice. 24:34 – Taking Stock of Burnout Risks and Protections ----------------------------------------------------------- ---For those who may be in an environment where layoffs have happened, what can they be paying attention to from a stressor standpoint in order to do something about it faster? ------“So here’s another thing that we need to talk about. If you are in a situation that for some reason is toxic or sort of impossible to ignore, you can’t meditate your way out of it…. You can meditate all day and all night, but if you are swimming in chemicals they are going to affect your body. If you are in a toxic situation in a workplace where everyone is feeling fear, that is going to enter your body too. So the question here for me is how mindful can you be of what emotions you are bringing with you to the communal work soup? Are you adding to the flavor of the broth, or are you making it impossible to eat? …You can’t totally protect yourself if there’s a pervasive fear in the office. So what you have to know is whether or not there’s a pervasive fear in the office. And if there is a pervasive fear and it’s not going away and leadership is not stepping up to increase trust and to increase psychological safety and to calm this fear…you have got to get moving. You can’t stay in a situation like that…. Sometimes the only answer is to get out…. People don’t want to hear that. People want to hear that they can do enough to take care of themselves to manage the situation. But you are not the situation. The situation is bigger than you. And you can’t manage everybody else’s emotions. And you can’t manage the level of safety. And you can’t manage what your work is going to require and what the stakeholders want. You can’t manage any of that. You have no control over it.” – Cait Donovan ---------Cait says we can measure heart waves up to 8-10 feet outside the body. ---------Cait mentioned her husband was near Chernobyl when it happened and had to take iodine for a while as a result. ---------We can exercise and sleep well and do other things to become more resilient. But that resiliency will only last so long based on the environment you’re in. ---Nick thinks this is hard for people to hear, especially when they see a tough job market. ------“You have to know that the choice that you’re making is to accept that your body is in a state of chronic stress, which means you need to build up as many burnout protection factors as you possibly can…. You are going to bed and waking up at the same time every day. You are spending time outside during dusk or dawn so that your hormonal cascade is working properly. You are focused on getting the right amount of water and electrolytes and all of those things into your body. You are eating well. You are managing your emotional health…. If you are going to stay in that situation you have got to do ALL of the things to last as long as you can…. If that’s your only option, you have got to up everything else.” – Cait Donovan ---------People need different levels of burnout protection factors to begin with. ---------Cait is going to get sunburned without sunscreen. It’s not a judgement but how she is built. Burnout protection factors are called BPFs for a reason because some of us need more of them than others. ---------If you need a higher level of protection factors already, it’s going to be harder to increase the level of protection by very much. And people also have to reduce risk factors. ---------There are many possible burnout protection factors and burnout risk factors, and it might be challenging to identify all of them without outside help. You need to understand what your needs are for standard, average health to see if you have room to add protection factors. And you also would need to remove / reduce the risk factors. ------If the biggest risk factor is being in a specific environment, then you would land on getting out. But it might not be the biggest burnout risk factor. ---------Cait gives an example scenario of a stress inducing home situation which might need to be addressed so you can stay at your job. ---------This goes back to addressing the holistic life of a person and thinking of them as a system. We need to take a 360-degree look. ------"We need to up our burnout protection factors and reduce our burnout risk factors as much as we can if we’re going to stay some place. In order to do that, you’ve got to be aware of what they are. So you have to do inventory. What really fuels me? What really drains me? Those are the basic questions… Draw a line down the middle of a paper. Start making a list…. It’s a phenomenal place to start, and most people, again, just like with finances, never stop to take stock of this. " – Cait Donovan 32:25 – Burnout in Leadership ----------------------------------- ---Is it more difficult for people managers / people leaders to keep burnout protection factors higher than the stressors and risks because of the nature of their position? ------Cait says yes and that leaders are having a hard time right now. ------“Mid-managers have long been known to have the highest stress levels in most companies…every time. Because they are getting slammed from both sides. Their leadership is slamming them, and the employees are slamming them. Everything is their fault. It’s either them or HR…. There’s no getting around that. One of those two groups of people is at fault for everything in an office, which of course is not true. But this is how it’s often displayed.” – Cait Donovan ------Cait feels mid-level managers should have outside support at almost all times in their role. This support could be therapy, coaching, mentorship, or something else. ---------“I honestly don’t believe that you can make it in that position well, be successful at it, and support people the way that you really want to if you don’t have support yourself…. Get somebody. Get something…. Do anything to have a space that is supportive for you. You absolutely need it.” – Cait Donovan, advice for mid-level managers ------Nick suggests managers could certainly use support if they have to be the ones to execute a layoff event, especially if they were not prepared to do it. ---------Cait says this is part of the job and that the leader should prepare for it as best they can. ------Going back to a broader view of leadership in general… ---------Over the last 20 years, leadership has drastically changed, but leaders haven’t changed so much over that period. Some leaders at the top do not mesh well with our current world, and they are getting criticized for it. ---------Some of our current business leaders learned specific management and leadership styles in school that might have been hierarchical and authoritative (methods considered successful at the time). ---------“The demand right now is for leaders to show up more authentically, to have more vulnerability, to show more empathy. I think…we are in the midst of this major shift for leaders, and I think it’s been incredibly hard for them…. If you want to stay in a leadership position, then you need to learn how to shift out of this hierarchical system…. For a lot of corporate America, this is not working anymore.” – Cait Donovan ---Is the mismatch in the needs of employees from their leaders the largest contributor to burnout culture? ------Cait says it is a big contributor and says one of the top 6 contributors to burnout in the workplace is a values mismatch, which can happen on 3 different levels: ---------A mismatch between a company’s spoken or written values and their values in action is one level. Are they (the company) espousing the values they claim to? When this is off, there is a lack of trust within the company. A lack of trust leads to a lack of safety which leads to stress. ---------The next is a mismatch between a manager / leader and an employee. Having differing values than your immediate boss makes it really hard to feel productive and impactful at your job. Feeling lack of impact and productivity at your job are major burnout factors. ---------There can also be a values mismatch between a person and the company where they work. If you feel the things your company is doing are in opposition to / against how you believe the world should function, that will be a massive burnout factor for you. The other two factors will be factors for the culture of the job, and this one specifically will be an individual burnout factor. ---Can the mid-level manager, with support, prevent their team from burning out if there is a mismatch from mid-level management upward? ------Cait says no. ------Cait gives a frequent keynote called “Dismantling Burnout: How Leaders and Teams Can Work Together to Overcome Burnout.” ---------This keynote speaks to the lines of responsibility for both leadership and employees. For example, what is leadership responsible for, and what are they not responsible for? ---------“While it’s important for leadership now to have more vulnerability and empathy and the soft skills are becoming more and more and more important…it’s not your leader’s job to be your therapist. It’s not your leader’s job to understand every single thing that’s going on in your life. It’s not your leader’s job to be the person you cry on their shoulder. It’s not your leader’s job to be your best friend in the workplace. That’s not your leader’s job. Your leader’s job is to create a sense of psychological safety for you as best as they can, and then the rest of the stuff that you bring with you to the workplace is up to you…. A leader can only do so much about your stuff. That’s not a leader’s job. A leader’s job is the workplace not the worker.” – Cait Donovan ---------Cait highlights a podcast episode called [The Workplace is a Trauma Recycling Center] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-the-workplace-is-a-trauma-recycling-center) . Each day we go into work and bring things from the rest of our lives with us. ---------We get triggered by things or annoyed by things that may not affect other people. We bring the rules we were taught over the course of our lives. All of this is creating conflict. ---------It’s hard for first time managers out there, especially right now. ------Nick references an episode of Cait’s podcast with guest Daisy Auger-Dominguez called [Burnt Out Leaders Lead Burnt Out Teams](Daisy Auger-Dominguez). ---------Cait says it isn’t that leaders should not care about their people. We should understand that leaders are not there to act as therapists. ---------Our leaders can absolutely show us empathy and make accommodations for us. ---------“I have seen the power of leadership when you know that a leader has your back. But what a leader can’t do is go in and solve your problems. They can give you space. They can give understanding. They can create accommodations (as much as they can within the system they work in)…but then you’ve still got to work out your stuff. If you’re granted the time and the space, then your job is to work out the stuff. It’s not their job.” – Cait Donovan ---------Right now, the expectations of workers are changing and demanding much more empathy and emotional intelligence from leaders. Cait feels there will be a time when the pendulum swings back closer toward the middle. ---------Often times people who do their jobs well are promoted to leadership, but doing your job well doesn’t mean you can be an effective leader. ---------Managers and leaders definitely need more training. They need more emotional intelligence just like the rest of us. Cait feels being a leader right now is harder because some of the lines have blurred / are blurrier. ---------“We need to figure out where the lines are, and I think leaders don’t know that right now. I think employees don’t know that right now, and I think everybody wants everybody else to be doing more.” – Cait Donovan 42:29 – Boundaries and Closing Thoughts --------------------------------------------- ---How can we set boundaries in a world where we are being asked to do more? ------“You can’t make boundaries for things that you don’t have control over. If you decide you’re not going to do something, then you’re also deciding that you’ll deal with the consequences of not doing something. That’s the boundary. You don’t get to decide what the outcome is.” – Cait Donovan ------Cait mentions internal boundaries are me against me boundaries. An example would be not doing a certain thing or crossing a certain line. ------“If you’re setting an external boundary, then you can make whatever request you like, which is not the boundary. Please don’t call me after 6 PM is not a boundary. That’s a request. The boundary is what you will do in response to people breaking or respecting your boundary.” – Cait Donovan ------External boundaries are things we told someone in advance would happen in a specific scenario. ------If we tell someone we will not answer the phone after 6 PM and then don’t answer when that person calls after 6 PM, that is an external boundary. ------“You have to understand that once you create those lines in the sand, they sometimes have consequences.” – Cait Donovan ---If you want to hear more from Cait and what she is doing to end burnout culture, check out [FRIED: The Burnout Podcast] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/) . ------“I think that it’s wise to remember how much power and autonomy you do have in your life. When you are under chronic stress, we tend to end up under this illusion that we don’t have any control and that we don’t have enough autonomy. And if you’re feeling that way right now, I would challenge you to challenge that. Take some time to figure out what you can influence, where you can influence it, and then start making the shifts that you need to make to increase your own feelings of safety, to increase your own feelings of security so that no matter what happens you’re in a better space.” – Cait Donovan Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- --- Cait mentioned mapping out your money as well as writing a new resume as things you can control and a way to process emotions from a difficult situation like a layoff. ------If you’re looking to uncover more things you can control but may have overlooked, check out [Episode 90 – Book Discussion: The Inner Game of Stress by Gallwey, Hanzelik, and Horton] (https://nerd-journey.com/book-discussion-the-inner-game-of-stress-by-gallwey-hanzelik-and-horton/) . --- Helpful links based on this discussion from Cait: ------ [Burnout Protection Factors or BPFs] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-protection-factors-bpf-s) ------ [Burnout Protection Factors are Smaller Than You Think] (https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/burnout-protection-factors-smaller-than-you-think-cait-donovan--t36te/) ------ [Burnout Risk Factors or BRFs] (https://www.friedtheburnoutpodcast.com/post/straightfromcait-burnout-risk-factors-a-holistic-view) ------ [Download Cait’s Core Values Worksheet] (https://bit.ly/corevaluesfreebie) --- For the leaders listening who want to improve empathy, check out [Episode 278 – Uncovering Empathy: The Greatest Skill of an Inclusive Leader with Marni Coffey (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/uncovering-empathy-the-greatest-skill-of-an-inclusive-leader-with-marni-coffey-1-3/) . --- Recommending listening for stories of burnout: ------ [Episode 127 – Countdown to Burnout with Tom Hollingsworth (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/countdown-to-burnout-with-tom-hollingsworth-3-3/) ------ [Episode 132 – Riding the Burnout Wave with Jonathan F] (https://nerd-journey.com/riding-the-burnout-wave-with-jonathan-f-2-2/) ------ [Episode 166 – Management and the Hypergrowth Startup with Andrew Miller (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/management-and-the-hypergrowth-startup-with-andrew-miller-2-3/) ------ [Episode 167 – Pause and Step Outside with Andrew Miller (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/pause-and-step-outside-with-andrew-miller-3-3/) ------ [Episode 181 – Crossing the Burnout Fault Line with Bill Kindle (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/crossing-the-burnout-fault-line-with-bill-kindle-2-3/) ------ [Episode 47 – You, Your Health, and the Datacenter with Keiran Shelden] (https://nerd-journey.com/nerd-journey-047-you-your-health-and-the-datacenter-with-keiran-shelden-pt-2/) ------ [Episode 58 – The Path to Management and Hard Resume Lessons with Kelly Schroeder] (https://nerd-journey.com/path-to-management-and-hard-resume-lessons-with-kelly-schroeder-pt-1/) ------Other episodes can be found on Nick’s blog [Burned Out for the Holidays] (https://blog.thenetworknerd.com/2021/12/24/burned-out-for-the-holidays/) . --- If you need support because you’ve been impacted by a layoff situation, we recommend listening to the following episodes: ------ [Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-psychological-transition-of-layoffs-with-leanne-elliott-1-2/) ------ [Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/) ------ [Episode 290 – Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/reduction-in-force-navigating-layoff-trends-in-tech-with-real-job-talk-1-2/) ------ [Episode 291 – Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffs-and-job-market-impacts-experience-with-rifs-preferred-with-real-job-talk-2-2/) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

29 Oct 2024

49 MINS

49:47

29 Oct 2024

#292

Conscious Decisions and Aspects of Technical Leadership with Tad Reeves (3/3)

Technical managers are responsible for developing great engineers, right? Yes, but that is only part of the job. Technical managers should also be developing leaders on their team. But how exactly do you do that? It starts with delegating some leadership responsibility when you delegate work. Tad Reeves, our guest in episode 298, returns to share his experience as a blogger, the progression from engineer to architect, and thoughts on being a technical manager. You’ll hear how Tad has made conscious decisions to take on or avoid certain types of job roles (consulting, people management, etc.) over time based on life circumstances outside of work. Original Recording Date: 09-12-2024 [Tad Reeves] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaddeusreeves/) is a principal architect for [Arbory Digital] (https://arborydigital.com/) . If you missed part 1 or part 2 of our discussion with Tad, be sure to check out [Episode 296] (https://nerd-journey.com/sustained-interest-a-formula-for-technical-mastery-with-tad-reeves-1-3/) and [Episode 297] (https://nerd-journey.com/consulting-and-content-management-blinking-lights-and-big-impacts-with-tad-reeves-2-3/) . Topics – LinkedIn and an Emphasis on Technical Writing, Architects and Interview Questions, The Role of Technical Manager, Developing Leaders and Stepping Away from Leadership, Parting Thoughts ================================================================================================================================================================================================= 2:56 – LinkedIn and an Emphasis on Technical Writing ---------------------------------------------------------- ---Tad mentions he sees people every so often who question the value of being on LinkedIn. Ever since his job at AARP, all of Tad’s future roles (contract and full-time roles alike) have been a result of passive recruitment through LinkedIn. ------Tad says his resume is what’s on LinkedIn. This is a great data point for all of us to consider (i.e. whether we are on LinkedIn and have our accomplishments listed). ------“There’s also a reason to be civil and always present the face that you want other people to see on LinkedIn because you never know. Almost certainly, somebody who’s going to hire you is going to be seeing you. If you have a proclivity for political rantings or something like that you should probably take that somewhere else. There are other, better places that aren’t going to affect your career.” – Tad Reeves ---What was Tad’s motivation for leveraging his writing and presentation skills more as he gained experience? ------Tad mentions he had been blogging for a while because it was interesting but originally began writing the articles for himself. ------“Google is better than the Confluence search engine anyway. I’m just going to write it on my own blog, and I’ll find it later.” – Tad Reeves, on getting into blogging ------Tad did not realize it at the time, but his articles were becoming popular. At Tad’s first [Adobe Summit] (https://summit.adobe.com/na/) (a yearly conference focused on marketing technology), multiple people recognized him and thanked him for the helpful blog articles. ------Many of Tad’s articles were about infrastructure, CI / CD pipelines and blue green deployments, and various other technical topics. Some articles even included diagrams Tad designed himself. ------Tad started to understand the visitors to his site were real people that he could impact in a positive way. And for him, that was fun and exciting. He could impact both direct customers and other engineers, which has also brought Tad new work over time. ------Many times, the thing that has brought Tad more work is writing “a bunch of helpful stuff.” He stresses the importance of considering the audience we are writing for as well. ------“Would this help somebody else do something? Is it giving away some of my secret sauce? I don’t know. Maybe. But, is it going to help somebody? Probably.” – Tad Reeves ------The articles became evidence of technical competence that could lead to more work while also being very fulfilling at the same time. ---When he began writing to share things publicly, did Tad have to get over initial anxiety or nervousness? How can others get past this fear of putting work out in the public spotlight? ------Tad says he had some things to get over. ------Being someone who is very passionate about analytics and statistics, Tad got certified in Splunk. ------Listen to Tad’s story of writing a blog to share his research comparing Splunk to a new emerging competitor after hearing about a customer’s choice to move away from Splunk. ---------The blog article got the attention of the competing product’s sales rep, and Tad was asked by his company to take it down. ---------Tad learned to be a bit more diplomatic in the language he’s using. But he also tells us to be prepared for others to distort what we say. Rather than letting this be a discouragement, keep trying to create helpful content. ---How did the emphasis on writing improve Tad’s communication skills? ------After doing consulting focused on Adobe Experience Manager, Tad worked for Rackspace in their managed hosting unit. ------Tad describes the Rackspace headquarters as a location housing about a thousand top-end engineers. There were specialists in DNS, public cloud, load balancing, etc. People with expertise were easy to find if Tad had questions. ------Tad continued writing to build his own expertise and was offered a job as a technical architect. Others saw Tad as a thought leader, and people continued to reference his work. ---------Tad considered himself just an engineer and didn’t really begin calling himself an architect until after he passed an architect exam. ---------Tad made a list of all of the Adobe Experience Manager (or AEM) installations he had touched, and it was scores of companies. The exercise of self-reflection helped Tad realize the breadth of his experience. ---------“I guess I can draw on that…. I’ve actually touched a lot of stuff. I could make a broad statement and have it not be based on my mind but based on having seen a bunch of stuff. That was the next major career jump…. I don’t have to be embarrassed about having an opinion.” – Tad Reeves 11:20 – Architects and Interview Questions ------------------------------------------------ ---What does it mean to be an architect as opposed to an engineer? ------There are many types of architects in the technology field – enterprise architects, VMware architects, application architects, etc. ------“Not only do you…know how it works, but have you seen enough implementations done correctly and really horribly wrong to be able to have some valuable opinions on how something should be put together? You’re not just reading the manual and doing what the company says are best practices. You have these things that are based on actual experience.” – Tad Reeves, on what an architect should be ---------An experienced architect could have valuable insights to contribute back to a company or a technology vendor based on their expeirence. ------“Not only could I sit down and make this thing follow orders…and do it right and solve the problem, but do I know all of the things that this thing can do? Do I know what it’s meant for and what it’s really not meant for?” – Tad Reeves ---------Architects know things at a deeper level than the marketing material. Tad tells us architects can also think on their feet and have lived through some mistakes. ---Tad likes to ask interview questions about mistakes. ------“Mistake related questions are some of my favorite and most revelatory interview questions…. Tell me the worst outage you’ve personally had, and then what did you learn about it?” – Tad Reeves, giving an example interview question ------Some people are not able to share a fault in an interview. They seem to dodge taking responsibility. ---------Tad gives us an example of owning up to an outage situation, giving the context surrounding it, and what was learned. ---------Tad would opt to hire the person who can admit their fault and share what they learned in the process. ------“I would like to know when somebody has recognized a fault or a way that they should have done it better. I would like to know that. Very seldom has somebody led a perfect technical career. I don’t even know that that exists…. If you’re ever in an interview with me, admit the fault.” – Tad Reeves ---------Tad gives an example of an outage situation where there were no health checks for a system to alert someone it was down. As a result of that situation, health checks then became standard for all systems. 14:46 – The Role of Technical Manager ------------------------------------------- ---What made Tad want to pursue people management? ------Tad says being a “people person” is its own skill. Being a tech leader is a complicated thing, and there might not be one simple set of distinct rules to follow for all situations. ------Tad references his experience working for the Church of Scientology. ---------There was a large website stack to manage, and the organization also did a high amount of nonprofit outreach activities. One example was sponsoring the largest non-governmental drug education campaign. ---------Tad began working as a systems administrator. ---------“I can make that plan if you want. I don’t know that it’ll be exactly what you want, but I’ll make that plan. And if the plan is good and you’re running that plan, the next thing you know you’re a people person.” – Tad Reeves, on volunteering to build a plan when no one else would and becoming a people leader ---------In being a people leader, Tad says you will have to think about what type of organizations can get work accomplished. There will be a mix of technical expertise amongst the employees within an organization, requiring some different approaches. ---------Tad gives the example of a website launch. This could involve content editors, designers, developers, systems people, e-commerce personnel, etc. ---------“I’ve seen people with various philosophies on how they want to run things. Some people are like ‘it’s totally flat around here. Everyone has a direct line to me.’ I don’t know about that. You kind of have to figure out the right way to run that in terms of delegating responsibility – not just responsibility to get something done but delegating leadership responsibility. And that is I think one of the hardest lessons to learn in management….” – Tad Reeves ---------The manager has to build up engineers and also build up leaders. ---------Some of Tad’s first remote management work was managing a team in Denmark. There was no way for him to physically be there, so he had to choose someone located there who could get work accomplished. ---------Tad highlights fostering open lines of communication as an important aspect of managing remote teams. You want employees who are not afraid to bring problems to you. Tad admits he didn’t get it right at first. ---------“How can I be a better manager, a better leader, just really to the benefit of the project? Really, at the end, you’re just trying to get the project done. You’re not doing it for your own self-aggrandizement…. One way or another this thing’s got to get done.” – Tad Reeves, on the manager’s focus on execution ---Was it easy for Tad to spot leadership qualities in others, or did he have to look intentionally for it? ------Tad says you can observe how people handle being delegated a specific task that contains some ambiguity. In this case there is clear assignment of the problem to solve / thing to be fixed, but you allow an employee to fill in the gaps on the “how.” ------“This person doesn’t mind running with it and can actually get it done and can actually realize that he’s responsible for the whole thing…. Some people, they want a ticket. Can you spell it all out in a ticket? …That one’s not a leader. That one doesn’t want to be a leader right now. That one would rather do the ticket. And that’s fine.” – Tad Reeves, on seeing leadership qualities in others ------The manager is looking for who will rise up and take a little more responsibility. ---What about interview skills? Did Tad already have those when he took on a role as a people leader? ------Tad didn’t really have the interviewing skills when he took on the role of people manager. He had been mostly an individual contributor to that point. ------“Sometimes you’re only a person leaving away from all of the sudden realizing you’re in a leadership role…. Sometimes it’s not ‘hey, you’ve been promoted.’ Sometimes it’s a bit more by default you’ve inherited these responsibilities.” – Tad Reeves ------When the person holding all the things together in an area suddenly leaves the company, it might then be you holding it all together. 18:36 – Developing Leaders and Stepping Away from Leadership ------------------------------------------------------------------ ---How did Tad determine if continuing as a people leader was something he wanted to do? ------“One thing that I…struggled with a bit when I was managing is I knew that there was going to be a point in managing where I simply could not keep up enough with tech….” – Tad Reeves ------Tad knew when he first started managing if someone on the team burned out or left, he could step in and cover the workload. ------During Tad’s time as a people leader, he would see new tools come out that he hadn’t touched or didn’t understand well. Tad tells us this creates some decisions on how to proceed or how to juggle the right way. ---------Do you use your spare time to skill up / learn the things you need to understand about the new tool? ---------Do you accept that you can only learn the tech at a certain level as the boss? ---------Do you start doing individual contributor work for a specific amount of time each day? ------“An effective technical manager knows about the technology they’re implementing. To a degree you’re not going to necessarily be effective.” – Tad Reeves ---------Tad gives the example of running a project that requires heavy Java development. He is not a Java developer. He can help manage the developers but would need a Java lead that could help with code reviews, etc. ---------Tad feels he has found his footing in the juggling act over time, but in the early days he had not. ------For Tad, the time to step away from leading people was when he and his wife had a baby. He wanted to work during a specific time slot and then stop to spend more time with his family. ---------“That was a very conscious decision. There were people asking me if I wanted a leadership role, and I was saying I do not at this time…. I do need this much time to be dad, and I’m totally going to do that.” – Tad Reeves, on the intentional choice to be a dad and how that impacted career decisions ---------According to Tad, work-life balance is often misused because it implies you need equal parts of something. ---------“So that’s where you make conscious decisions about your career to say…can I follow this crazy, ambitious career at this stage of my life?” – Tad Reeves ---------Technical leadership careers have a composition of elements that one needs to consider according to Tad. It’s not just 9 to 5 when you’re the boss. ---Tad shares his current family situation and how that has impacted recent career decisions. ------He has 3 kids, each involved in different activities. Tad’s wife provides him the air cover to work more intense hours in consulting. ------Despite the above, they still block off family time. Weekends are reserved for family time, renovation projects, kid activities, mountain biking, carpentry. 25:47 – Parting Thoughts ------------------------------ ---Tad works for Arbory Digital as previously mentioned. You can find Tad’s blog at [blog.arborydigital.com] (https://blog.arborydigital.com/) and his podcast [here] (https://blog.arborydigital.com/podcast-home) with lots of helpful information about Adobe Experience Manager. ---Are there specific technical communities listeners should consider joining if they want to get into Adobe Experience Manager? ------Tad highly recommends attending Adobe Summit. He attends every year, and it is a great place to get technical content. ------The big conferences in your area (i.e. Dreamforce, Adobe Summit, etc.) are places where we have the opportunity to meet people who can take our career to the next level. ------“One other piece of advice that I forgot to give along the way is…going to those conferences and not just being a spectator, going and sitting right up front, and then right afterwards go ask the presenter a bunch of stuff. The next thing you know you know all the people at the company. You know all the lead engineers, and you can get some really amazing stuff done. The sit in the back and be a wallflower thing…that was for grade school. Right now, it’s a good idea to sit in the front.” – Tad Reeves Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Tad likes to build things people can use and enjoy, and it’s been highlighted multiple times. Getting positive feedback on his blogs at Adobe Summit was like a next iteration of this and a realization that the content he was creating was useful to others and farther reaching than he thought. Tad had started writing the blogs for himself to use for reference later, and he continued to write once he knew it was helping others. ------This is a great example of what Andrew Miller described about being intentional with your personal brand in [Episode 165 – Excel by Being Intentional with Andrew Miller (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/excel-by-being-intentional-with-andrew-miller-1-3/) . ---There were undertones both this week and in [Episode 297] (https://nerd-journey.com/consulting-and-content-management-blinking-lights-and-big-impacts-with-tad-reeves-2-3/) – specific times in our lives may be better suited for working in specific types of roles than others. Tad moved away from consulting at one point and then later back to it. He also moved away from people management at one point due to family circumstances. ------Recommended listening for careers that might have zigzags: --------- [Episode 201 – Generate Depth On-Demand with Yvette Edwards (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/generate-depth-on-demand-with-yvette-edwards-1-2/) --------- [Episode 202 – Having Some Career Zigzags with Yvette Edwards (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/having-some-career-zigzags-with-yvette-edwards-2-2/) --------- [Episode 68 – When Life Disrupts Your Work-Life Balance] (https://nerd-journey.com/when-life-disrupts-your-work-life-balance/) ---Most of our guests who have pursued people management in tech have struggled with finding the right level of technical depth after making the move. Some guests have even gone back to individual contributor because they wanted to get technically deeper. ---Technical conferences are great for networking with other people. Please take an active role in meeting and interacting with other attendees. Ask them about what they do. Tell them what you’re trying to do and what you’re interested in learning. You never know who you might meet. ------Don’t forget about meetup groups in your area or smaller local conferences if you cannot travel or afford to attend a big conference. ------Many tech vendors may have an online conference that could be free or paid, but these could be a way to get some good training. They may not be as great for networking with other attendees, however. Consider taking part of a day off or a full day off to focus on learning. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ---Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

22 Oct 2024

32 MINS

32:20

22 Oct 2024

#291

Consulting and Content Management: Blinking Lights and Big Impacts with Tad Reeves (2/3)

How can a technology become our focus area unexpectedly? For Tad Reeves, it started when he said yes to the right opportunity. After doing back-end systems work for hosting providers, working in web design and development, stints in contracting and consulting, and experience with web analytics platforms…content management systems seem like a logical next step in the progression. Tad Reeves, our guest in episode 297, returns to share his experience doing both consulting and contract work. We will also hear about the genesis of Tad’s exposure to Adobe Experience Manager and content management systems and how placing focus in this area allows for making a big impact that keeps the work purposeful and fulfilling. Why did Tad continue to incorporate his love of design into his work? Listen below to catch the full story. Original Recording Date: 09-12-2024 [Tad Reeves] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaddeusreeves/) is a principal architect for [Arbory Digital] (https://arborydigital.com/) . If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Tad, be sure to check out [Episode 296] (https://nerd-journey.com/sustained-interest-a-formula-for-technical-mastery-with-tad-reeves-1-3/) . Topics – A Flip Back to Design, A Framework for Solutioning, Contract and Full-time Work, Out of Balance, Adobe Experience Manager and Content Management ========================================================================================================================================================= 2:33 – A Flip Back to Design ---------------------------------- ---“I think flavors and harmonics of that thrill you can find also in debugging – when you have something that is affecting a broad swathe of people and then you fix it and it’s jammin’ now and suddenly it’s all working for everybody. I think every time that I’ve found myself in a job where suddenly I’m doing something that doesn’t really matter, that doesn’t really affect anybody, then suddenly I’m almost like a solder pulled back from the front line…. What am I doing here, guys? Only one person used this app that I’m writing. Do I have to do this?” – Tad Reeves, on making an impact in his work ------Nick suspects a drop in energy when one feels the work they do is not making an impact. ---Tad worked with other engineers but was overall in charge of some projects for [UUNET] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUNET) , often being tagged as the lead. ------He could pull in other engineers to help rack the gear or help with network cabling as needed and did not have to do it all on his own. ------This role was more of an implementation engineer and was not within the scope of what we might now call an architect. Tad would be given a specification and new equipment that had been procured. His job was to get it up and running and to pull in others as needed to make that happen (i.e. people from other teams like networking, technology vendor personnel, etc.). ------Tad highlights this role as fulfilling but also a place to grow from and from which to expand a “sphere of responsibility.” ---What made Tad want to expand his sphere of influence? Was it working on those specific projects and being the lead? ------Normally one would say yes. Tad had several interests he would bounce between. At his point in time, Tad had not completely given up on the idea of design work. Tad tells us he still likes design work, finds it fulfilling, and he tries to do it when he can. ------Tad flipped back into web design at one point and worked for a firm that did web development work (HTML, CSS, JavaScript). He used tools like [Dreamweaver] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Dreamweaver) at this time. ------Tad tells us he enjoys contract work like this and built a website for the US House of Representatives and the Veterans Affairs Committee. Tad not only built this site but designed it as well. ------“I look back fondly on a lot of that experience because I enjoy understanding how the whole cycle works. So getting a chance to do design work and that whole end of UX work…it’s a completely different problem. But that doesn’t make it any less fulfilling to solve.” – Tad Reeves, on returning to design work ------Tad did some web analytics projects at the web development firm based on his Webtrends experience. It was an area he still found very interesting. 7:19 – A Framework for Solutioning ---------------------------------------- ---Tad worked a contract gig for Georgia Pacific focused on selecting a web analytics platform. He was involved in activities like requirements gathering / discovery, research projects, stakeholder interviews, and developing success criteria. ------At this time web analytics was changing. People wanted to use more than just web server logs to do analytics and started leveraging tracking beacons in JavaScript, for example. ------Tad had to figure out a framework to use for selecting and recommending the best web analytics solution for this company. He wasn’t given a specification to implement like before. This was architecting a solution based on a problem / problems. ------“Develop a framework for coming up with requirements from scratch. And then who would you ask? What questions would they have? What would they need? …Come up with that framework and figure out how…you map products against a framework. And then how do you rank those? And how do you then present that back…? …It was completely open ended, and it turned out really well. But, you’re figuring out the entire cycle from one requirement of ‘we need web analytics. Figure out how to tell us that it’s the right one.’” – Tad Reeves ------Did Tad have the same fear taking on this role as when he first got the systems administration job? ---------Tad thinks it was even more fear inducing in this case. He knew a great deal about the product landscape and would not be starting from scratch. ---------Navigating corporate meetings and talking to stakeholders was a new experience for Tad. It was out of his comfort zone, and he had to figure it out. ---------Tad traveled to Georgia to conduct the stakeholder interviews in person. There was no other member of the team to back him up on this project. ---------“It was just ‘figure it out.’ I think some of those sink or swim moments…necessity can be a driver in some cases.” – Tad Reeves ------What did Tad have to learn quickly when communicating with these stakeholders? Nick is imagining it was a range of people from the very technical to perhaps high level executives. ---------Tad says he listened to the interview we did with Max Kanat-Alexander in [Episode 287 – Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/scope-creep-evaluating-impact-in-career-decisions-as-a-principal-engineer-with-max-kanat-alexander-3-3/) . Really at first the goal is to understand what the problem is, and once you understand, you are essentially 90% of the way there. ---------“I don’t even know what their problem is. All these tools look great, and they all have price tags that make me cry. So I just need to understand what their problem is. And I just started talking to people to understand what their problem was.” – Tad Reeves ---------Tad tells us he didn’t have time to doubt himself or get hit with impostor syndrome. He knew the only way the work would be accomplished was to start talking to people. It was a focus on understanding the problem so he could then find a solution. ------Was Tad’s approach to understanding the problems the same across the board or different and customized based on a person’s position? ---------Tad feels like it was a unified approach to stakeholder interviews, but he also tells us he did not fear a conversation with any person because of their high-ranking position (i.e. a lack of intimidation due to position). ---------Sometimes not having any thought of a need to be intimidated in speaking to someone removes all pressure and supports a much better conversation. 12:15 – Contract and Full-time Work ----------------------------------------- ---After doing contract work, what made Tad want to move back to being a full-time employee at a company and away from being a contractor? ------Contract work and full-time work have their pros and cons, and Tad has done plenty of each type of work. ------Tad says working full-time within a large organization can lend stability in knowing where you sit within the organization and understanding your job responsibilities. Often times people can “stop and cut” at the end of the day without trying to figure out where their next job is going to be. ------Being a contract worker means you need to complete the work assigned to you, and you need to spend time “hunting” for your next role to prepare for when your contract ends. Some people enjoy that hunt while others seek to avoid it entirely. ------Tad would tell us there are places in life where both contract work and full-time work could make sense. ---Is one of these choices (contract vs. full-time) safer than the other right now during a time of layoffs across the tech industry? ------Tad shares a story of learning someone he had worked with for 10 years was laid off. ------“How do you summarily lose somebody who’s got that much skill, knowledge, and drive and passion for their work? I really feel for folks like that. I don’t know that there’s a formula for never getting laid off because in some cases it’s not under your control. Especially when you’re working for a large company, you can be doing everything brilliantly. You can be at the peak of your career and still be at the adverse end of a layoff.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad has found security in his ability to get a new job when needed or desired. ---------This can, for example, come down to how we present ourselves publicly. ---------“Do you always have your ear to the rail so to speak on…is the work that you do valuable? Is there lots more work of that around? And if something should happen to your job right now, do you have skills that could be in demand?” – Tad Reeves ---------For a long time Tad would brainstorm or cultivate possible careers based on his skillset. If Tad just learned load balancing, he could go work in networking should something happen to his job, even if that wasn’t his first choice. He still knows server technologies as well. ---------Tad also highlights his willingness to go get a new job. We need that willingness when it is time to take action. ------Did experience doing contract work make Tad better at job seeking than someone who has not had to look for a new job every few months / years? ---------Tad says it has to a degree. ---------“I’ve had waves of necessity that have driven a lot of the career changes that I’ve made. I would love to say that I’m just an ambitious technologist, but technology isn’t the only ambition that has driven my career changes. It’s been a lot of family and things like that too.” – Tad Reevesp ---------Working at a large company for many years may lull us into a false sense of security and make us think the company resources can never be exhausted. We might even think the work we are doing will not make or break the company. Tad contrasts that with working in consulting or for a small company. He knew in those circumstances doing great work was the only way to get another job. It was the feeling of necessity and the impact he felt he was making. 17:02 – Out of Balance ---------------------------- ---Tad spoke about self-awareness earlier. This is something we need to exercise and can help us notice things are out of balance. How has Tad experienced this experience of being out of balance in his career? ------In 2009 Tad and his wife had their first child. He was working for a software development company at that time. He also did contract work for the State Department (developing in languages such as [Cold Fusion] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_ColdFusion) ). ------“I was developing full-time for an application that had like 9 users. It was extraordinarily unfulfilling. That was a low point. I’m getting paid. They’re paying me. And I’m doing the work that in a normal company brings value. But what are the results of my actions doing? Even the best work that I can do will now affect just 9 users who will use this once every week. This is out of balance.” – Tad Reeves ------After the addition of the new baby, Tad was doing JavaScript and user interface (UI) work. ------“This was my first time…where I wasn’t really working in an office either. I was doing a lot of work from home, and I was doing work that never really stopped.” – Tad Reeves ------At one point Tad’s wife let him know they were having another baby, and he was trying to figure out how to make that work. They were living close to Washington, D.C. It had a high cost of living even in 2009. ------“Two things gotta happen right now. I need a lot more money, and I’m not about to go and throw away my whole ‘dadding’ time by working from home all the time and never being present for my kids.” – Tad Reeves ------Sometimes we might wish something was different, but Tad would advise naming specifically what we want. Consider the type of company you want to work for, whether in an office or remote, the type of work you want to do, the schedule you want, etc. Only when we specify exactly what we want can we know when a new opportunity is the right one for us. ---As a result of being very specific about what he wanted, Tad said yes when someone from AARP recruited him via LinkedIn to do Linux systems administration. ------The mission of AARP really aligned with Tad’s values. He cared deeply for the web property AARP maintained. They were at this time one of the largest membership organizations in the world. ------The person with F5 load balancer expertise was leaving the company. Tad decided to lean in and learn F5 to become the new subject matter expert, getting certified to do it. ---Tad wanted a job where he could be finished with work at the end of the day, and he knew that meant he could not be in the consulting realm. ------“I cannot be in the consulting realm right now. Because in consulting…you’re paid by the job. And it doesn’t matter how long it takes. You gotta do it even if it takes longer than you wanted…. I needed control over my schedule. That was an intentional life change that I made at that point. Do you have any idea how many hikes and walks I got to talk with my kids because of that? It was truly wonderful.” – Tad Reeves ---Nick says people may not know what the possibilities are for jobs and work if they have not seen it or been exposed to it. ------Tad says if you have not been exposed to something, you may not know what you should be asking for in a new job. You may not know that there can be a different way of living, etc. 24:31 – Adobe Experience Manager and Content Management ------------------------------------------------------------- ---AARP was where Tad got into configuration management tools like Puppet and Chef. ---Tad tells the story of his job interview and being asked about a content management system called [Day CQ] (https://www.nextrow.com/blog/adobe-experience-manager/what-is-adobe-cq5) . Tad had never heard of it, and the interviewer said they could train him. ---Not long after Tad joined the company, this software got purchased by Adobe and would later become [Adobe Experience Manager] (https://business.adobe.com/products/experience-manager/adobe-experience-manager.html) . ------“Little did I know that would end up basically defining my career from that point until now.” – Tad Reeves, on his first exposure to what became Adobe Experience Manager ---For the role at AARP, Tad had been commuting into downtown Washington, D.C. He tells the story of being cold called by a recruiter about a role focused on Adobe Experience Manager. ------Tad’s opinion of Adobe Experience Manager was not high, but this recruiter was looking for a systems administrator that knew it well. The position was significantly more pay and allowed him to work remotely. ------“All remote? I’m in. Even if I have to deal with this thing I think is a pig. I’ll deal with the pig if I can be full remote.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad has worked remotely for the most part since getting the above role. ---What made Tad fall in love with Adobe Experience Manager? How can people be open to going deep in areas that take them by surprise? ------This caught Tad by surprise. It was a technology he initially knew nothing about despite working on numerous large website projects which included some form content management. ------This type of technology is used primarily for very large websites, something Tad highlighted as an interesting aspect. ------“Even though it had a proclivity for going down all the time, it once again was scratching my itch of…there’s a lot of traffic going on it. And I could watch it go. Blinking lights…here we go. Blinking lights again drawing me in. They even let me go to the datacenter every now and then and do stuff. Alright, you got me.” – Tad Reeves ---What exactly do we mean when we say content management? ------Think about Chevrolet or the Food Network’s website. The main content for Food Network might be recipes, videos, and things of that nature. ---------Recipes, for example, would be input by non-technical people. People writing recipes or uploading videos would not be developers. Non-technical people will maintain the content. ---------The content needs to be organized so that it is performant and everything can be stored and easily retrieved. ---------A system like this could solve the problem of translating pages into multiple languages or present a photo in multiple different sizes on a website. ------Content management also gets into digital experience. ---------Every site visitor should not get the same experience upon each visit, for example. Think about a new customer vs. a returning customer (i.e. someone who has made a purchase) or the person who has logged in compared to the one who has not logged in. It’s important to have mechanisms to serve the different types of users. ---------“It gets really complicated, and so as a result you need a system that is complicated. And whenever you have a complicated system there’s a million ways that it can break.” – Tad Reeves ------Content management systems are particularly interesting to Tad because they are often used for the marketing site or corporate website, which can represent a company’s hope for the future. ---------Tad feels his experience in back-end systems came into play at this point. He tells the story of being an e-mail sysadmin (systems administrator). ---------“The problem with being an e-mail sysadmin is…the very best you can possibly be is to be invisible. And also nobody is going to be attributing the company’s success to what you did…. It doesn’t matter that it’s still a fascinating technical problem to solve and I still love e-mail systems. But they can be unfulfilling as a result in some cases. Whereas, marketing systems have all this hope tied to them….” – Tad Reeves ------------An e-mail systems administrator will get complaints if people get too much spam e-mail and also then get complaints if important e-mails are not getting through as expected. ------------Tad says working with marketing systems allows you to meet interesting people who work in them. ---------Nick says working with and supporting a marketing system makes you feel like you have a greater purpose / part in the company’s success because of the contribution one can make that is NOT invisible. ---------Tad says we can get separated from feedback sometimes when we work in systems. Imagine a new website launch making conversion rates go up by 300%. That kind of feedback gets Tad excited. ------Tad shares an interesting problem he worked on for Food Network and how their traffic spikes by a factor of 50 around Thanksgiving, Christmas, and during the Super Bowl. ---------There were a lot of things which had to be figured out to support this kind of scale. It involved learning about caching, for example, and this was one of Tad’s first big cloud migrations. ---------“These were intense things to learn, out of the comfort zone stuff to learn, but still, you’re solving a really jazzy problem….” – Tad Reeves ---------Tad got to see the scale of traffic and thought it was very cool. It got him excited. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Part of our show’s mission is to educate listeners on the types of roles they could have in technology based on their experience. If we highlight the differences in contract work compared to consulting… ------Being a consultant could mean you work for a consulting firm, a firm who does services / consulting work for other companies as part of their business model. If you work for that firm, you are likely a resource who is put to work in a specific area based on the pipeline of projects on which the company has committed to execute for their customers. You would move from project to project over time assuming the company has plenty of work to support its staff. ---------You may or may not have a role responsible for bringing in new sales for the consulting firm. Yes, you can do a good job for customers you work with and build great relationships as a way to help your company increase revenue. But there may be a dedicated sales teams who is working to get new engagements for the firm. ------Doing contract work means you work for a company for a set amount of time and would not be considered a full-time employee (i.e. a 3-month, a 6-month, or a 9-month contract for example). Likely it’s for a company whose business model is not doing consulting for other companies. But in this position you would need to begin searching for your next job role before your contract ends to avoid a gap in employment. ---Were you surprised by Tad getting into Adobe Experience Manager and content management systems? ------Nick argues this looks like a logical adjacency based on past experience doing back-end systems for web servers, being a web developer, and work with web analytics using Webtrends and other tools. ------The focus on content management allowed Tad to continue to make the impact he wanted to make and to get that feedback we all want in knowing we are making a difference in a positive way for our company. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ---Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

15 Oct 2024

36 MINS

36:30

15 Oct 2024

#290

Sustained Interest: A Formula for Technical Mastery with Tad Reeves (1/3)

What do you love most about your job? Give that some thought before you answer. Have you forgotten what brought you into this industry in the first place? Tad Reeves, our guest this week in episode 296, has been consistently reminded of the things he loves about technology throughout his career. Tad originally pursued mechanical engineering but made a change to graphic design. Soon he fell into technology and worked for an internet service provider in the early days of the internet. Tad was driven to learn technological concepts at a deeper level and to nurture his interests, letting these behaviors guide him through different jobs and into large scale environments. In this discussion you’ll hear about how doing phone support made Tad’s troubleshooting and communication skills better and prepared him for later roles, thoughts on the role of the technical lead, and how an impromptu dinner meeting led to a job as a systems administrator. Original Recording Date: 09-12-2024 Topics – Mechanical Engineering and Graphic Design, Supporting the Early Internet, A Level of Interest Drives Deeper Understanding, The Move to Webtrends, Landing Something Bigger, The Technical Lead, Relocation and a Love for Big Gear =========================================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:09 – Mechanical Engineering and Graphic Design ------------------------------------------------------ --- [Tad Reeves] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/thaddeusreeves/) is a principal architect for [Arbory Digital] (https://arborydigital.com/) . Arbory Digital is a consulting firm which specializes in working with enterprises using content management systems, specifically [Adobe Experience Manager] (https://business.adobe.com/products/experience-manager/adobe-experience-manager.html) . ------Tad is a technologist at heart but has focused on Adobe Experience Manager in the last 15 years or so. ---Why did Tad decide to study graphic arts in school? ------When Tad was in high school, he wanted to design cars and refers to his young self as a “complete car nerd.” Tad still has a ton of car knowledge. ------Tad was on the fence between the art side of design (i.e. visual design) or the engineering side of design. After getting into the mechanical engineering school at Oregon State, Tad started an internship with someone who was a seismic engineer, specializing in doing retrofits for buildings. ---------After helping the seismic engineer with some of his work, Tad came to a harsh realization. ---------“And I saw what being an engineer is day to day…. And I’m looking at these pages of Calculus and all that kind of stuff…I don’t want to do that. That’s not what I want to spend the rest of my life doing…. I’m going to have to tell everybody I know that I’m not going to be an engineer anymore because I don’t want to do that.” – Tad Reeves, on the realization that mechanical engineering wasn’t so interesting ---------Though Tad was initially afraid of his parents being angry with his decision to pursue a different career, they supported his choice to pursue something more interesting. ---------Tad’s mother was a nurse and his dad an electrician. ------Tad already had an interest in design and would design newsletters, for example. He selected graphic design. ---------“I’ll do graphic design. So I did that for a year in college, but then at the same time, I was spending all my spare time fixing stuff. I was always tinkering with computers and stuff. That wasn’t my original interest, but it was one that drew me.” – Tad Reeves 5:42 – Supporting the Early Internet ------------------------------------------ ---Tad shares the story of getting a job doing technical support for a small, local internet service provider (ISP) with about 1000 subscribers in Tigard, Oregon. ------“The pay…that’s not what I’m here for, but the problems I was solving were genuinely cool. They had my interest… Having the rush come in and seeing that thing just light up with subscribers, that was my first moment of…making stuff that a bunch of people use…that’s cool. Graphic design is awesome. It’s a lot of fun, but this is really awesome…. That was where I kind of switched gears and said ok, I want a career doing computer stuff.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad remembers building a modem rack for the ISP using [USR] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USRobotics) 336 modems. These would have been 33.6 Kbps speed modems. ------The type of work was interesting to Tad, and he recognized the technology was still new, meaning not many people understood this area of technology. ---Was the original choice of mechanical engineering work not making enough impact or not providing enough return on Tad’s efforts? ------With the right people in his life earlier on, some of his decisions about engineering may have turned out different. ------In engineering school, there were math and physics classes in which Tad felt out of his depth. When speaking to his professors about this feeling, he was told these were weed out classes used to get rid of anyone who truly didn’t want to pursue that field of study. This did not sit well with Tad. ------Reflecting back, Tad thinks he might have been happy with a career in mechanical engineering. ---Maybe organizing / designing the layout of the closet isn’t so different than going and working on a car in your spare time? ---Tad says there is the design element and then the presentation aspect. ------During the time Tad worked for the ISP, the internet was new to many people. They would come to classes Tad taught to learn about it. ------As part of the experience for potential new subscribers, Tad would give them a tour of the “show closet” containing all the modems. It was something that really impressed people and perhaps a humble beginning to what we now know as datacenter tours. ---How did the phone support impact Tad’s troubleshooting skills? ------Tad feels like most anyone in technology should take on a support role at some point in their life. Speaking more broadly, Tad thinks almost everyone should experience a customer service job because of the skills we can learn. ---------Working in support / customer service type roles helps us to focus on serving the customer and control our reactions to different situations. ---------“That takes drilling, and as a kid you don’t know how to do that. So there’s a lot of maturing that you do.” – Tad Reeves, on support and customer service roles making us better ---------Tad shares the story of a caller he spoke to once whose power was out and had called him on a cell phone. The person did not realize they needed power to use the internet. Listen to the way Tad handled the conversation. ------Sometimes Tad would need to drive out to someone’s house to provide support, but it was not extremely often. 10:40 – A Level of Interest Drives Deeper Understanding ------------------------------------------------------------- ---“I should dive into this hard. If I’m going to not have a $6 per hour tech support job, I’m going to need to get good at stuff. I think that was where my career started to change.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad could not afford much working at the ISP and was living with his dad at the time. Necessity drove him to take action. ------Tad bought some networking books to help him understand concepts at a deeper level about how the internet worked. He realized putting in the work would allow him to get a job somewhere other than the ISP (somewhere bigger). ---Tad had practical experience with some of the technologies before he began to learn them at a deeper level. Did this order of learning affect his learning process over time or the way he studies for certification exams? ------Tad says it is more known today that certifications like the [CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert)] (https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/certifications/expert/index.html) are a pathway to get better jobs. During the time Tad started his studies, career paths via certifications were much less known or clear. ------“Whatever I was supposed to do was not known. What I did know is that I loved the internet, and I didn’t understand how it worked…. I really liked the idea of running a mail server…and Exchange was interesting…. But then I just had to keep backtracking and backtracking until I was just sitting in internet fundamentals.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad would be troubleshooting and hear terms he didn’t understand. There were fundamental concepts he needed to understand to gain a full understanding of some of the terminology. ------Tad studied books of material but never went for any kind of certification exam at this time. He wasn’t trying to get a certification but merely trying to understand. At the end of his studies, Tad felt he was a much more effective troubleshooter instead of shooting in the dark like before. ---Nick says we can follow our interests and learn things at a deeper level wherever we are in our career. But it can be difficult to decide where to place that focus with so many technologies. ------Tad has gone back to his old high school in Oregon a few times to give talks on technology careers to the students. ------The teenager in high school is looking forward to a career and seeking options for their future. But when you are in a career, you might forget what drew you to your field in the first place until you need to explain it to someone. ---------In IT Operations, there are problems with burnout, and there are prevailing thoughts that it can be drudgery. ---------“You sometimes forget what got you into this in the first place until you go to a school and some innocent kid asks you ‘what do you love the most about your job?’” – Tad Reeves ---------Tad says answering the question above can remind us to be appreciative of what we do. ------Tad says nurturing and paying attention to our level of interest will ultimately help us get and keep jobs. ---------“I feel like this is a theme that I could probably come back to again and again…. I don’t feel like I’m the most technically superior person in the room a lot of the time, but there’s a lot of times where I’m the most interested and the most willing to communicate about it. And there’s a lot of times there’s somebody who might be technically much more proficient, but they’re bored. They want to go home. Which one of us is going to end up in the lead role? …It’s that level of interest and picking something that you want to be interested in and then really just nurturing that.” – Tad Reeves ------Nick feels like people notice it when you are the person most interested in a topic. Was Tad’s answer to what he loved most about his job that he gets to follow what is interesting? ---------Tad says his interests have been different at different times. He has worn many hats as it relates to large site work over time. ---------“This one thing that does continue to drive me is this love of making stuff that people use and then watching a bunch of people use it. It must be analogous to the joy that must be felt to somebody who designs a bridge…. It’s that creation for others and then watching it then unfold.” – Tad Reeves 18:56 – The Move to Webtrends ----------------------------------- ---How did Tad progress from the ISP to bigger environments after taking the time to learn foundational concepts? ------Tad didn’t quite know how to get a better job. This was before LinkedIn, Careerbuilder, and Monster.com. Tad printed copies of his resume and would walk into businesses in the area to share he was looking for a job. ------Tad responded to a newspaper article for a role in tech support for [Webtrends] (https://www.webtrends.com/) , headquartered in Portland. ---------Webtrends was a leader in web analytics during this time, and their solution would provide customers insights into web traffic volume. ---------Much of the role was spent doing phone support. Customers would often send Tad log files for analysis. In 1998, e-mail could be used to send 600 MB log files! ---------For local customers, Tad would often make site visits to help. This was his first exposure to enterprise datacenters. During this role he learned about the need for clusters web servers. ---------And Tad’s interests continued to drive him. When he heard about things like [Netscape Enterprise Server] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_iPlanet_Web_Server#History) , for example, he wanted to know what it was and how to set it up. ---------During this time, Tad created his own home lab environment to tinker with made up of old laptops, etc. He even got a dedicated [ISDN] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISDN) line at his house to support the lab. ---Did Tad target Webtrends because of the impact they were making, or was that something he benefitted from only later? ------Tad says statistics and analytics are fascinating to him, and one gets a great deal of exposure to these in IT operations roles. He enjoyed supporting a product many companies were using to gain insight from web logs as well. ------Also, [SEO (Search Engine Optimization)] (https://developers.google.com/search/docs/fundamentals/seo-starter-guide) was in its infancy during this time. ------The role overall was made up of several things Tad really enjoyed. 22:56 – Landing Something Bigger -------------------------------------- ---How did Tad decide what to do next? “So I didn’t decide. All I knew was for sure I needed something bigger.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad says he had a travel itch and wanted to get out of his hometown. ------“This is one of these other ones that I think is a theme that I could probably come back to a few times…of things that changed my career and were more of a factor than other things. It wasn’t just that I was a better developer at this than somebody else or something like that. One of those things is a set of well-honed written and verbal communication skills and a willingness to use them…a willingness to just go and talk to somebody, even if it seems weird…. Just do it.” – Tad Reeves ------Tad wanted a change but wasn’t sure how. While visiting a friend in Omaha, he ended up connecting with someone who conducted Cisco training that needed a systems administrator. ---------Tad was honest about his skills and interests, but this person wanted to interview Tad in person and said he was teaching a course in Wichita, Kansas. Tad rented a car right after getting off the phone and drove to meet this guy for dinner in Wichita. ---------The dinner meeting went really well, and the person Tad met landed him a job with State Farm Insurance as a Windows NT Systems Administrator. ------“It was awesome that I landed this job. I was in pure terror…. Basically as soon as I landed this job I went and found somebody who had…a bunch of installation CDs, and I just went crazy hitting the books so that I could arrive at least sounding like I wasn’t a fake. Once again it’s this interest thing. I wanted to solve all the problems. I may not have the answer. I’m totally going to find it.” – Tad Reeves ---------The job was a level 3 systems administrator, and at this time State Farm had the largest Windows NT Server deployment in the world (around 33,000 of them). ---------For several months Tad would go home and study after work until he felt confident and competent enough. ---------“I’m trying harder than everybody else, and nobody else is trying. So I’m actually ok.” – Tad Reeves, on beginning to feel competent in his new role in systems administration ---Tad feels like the telephone tech support for the ISP and at Webtrends prepared him well for what came next. He became confident in being able to figure out most any problem if the need arose. ---The role at Webtrends had exposed Tad to outage type situations that were of a more critical nature. These were businesses calling in for support and not consumers who needed help with their internet. A business could have been losing money due to a system outage / problem. ------Tad had to deal with escalation / urgent calls in the Webtrends role as well. ---At State Farm there were outages, and Tad and the team he worked on were an escalation point for outages. ------Tad doesn’t think he had yet gained skill in communication around outages at this point in his career. ------Later in his career Tad had to deal with some outages and would further hone those communication skills out of necessity and responsibility to deliver. Tad recognized the need for improving in this area and took action. ------Tad worked on a team of 4 other engineers. In addition to the engineers there was a project manager, Tad’s boss, and a Microsoft representative. Systems administrators / engineers worked together to solve problems but may not individually own a system’s uptime. ---------“A lot of the outages and so forth we had to just explain to our supervisor or to the project manager. We didn’t necessarily have to explain them directly to the customer. …I was in some meetings where things had to be explained…. It must be wild to be in a hot seat like that, but I wasn’t yet in the hot seat. That was to come, but at that particular job I was just focused on technology.” – Tad Reeves 29:30 – The Technical Lead -------------------------------- ---Being in the hot seat may mean someone has moved from technical contributor to more of a technical lead / technical owner. How has this played out in the roles Tad has held? ------“There the concept of responsibility for a job, for an individual unit of work, and then there’s a responsibility for your area, your field, the service itself that you support, the whole system you support, the website you support, and so forth…these spheres of responsibility.” – Tad Reeves ------An individual contributor is often responsible for completing work given to them and by extension has a shared responsibility for the uptime or performance of a service or system. ------“As a lead, now the buck is stopping with you. And so now you not only are still contributing as an individual, but you have by extension a responsibility for the products that the people by you are also producing. And what is unacceptable at that point in time is for you to point to them as an excuse for your lack of success…. What’s acceptable is keep the site up. Keep your sphere running…. It’s on you to fix it. It’s on you to do those postmortems or to figure out how an inefficient process needs to be more efficient.” – Tad Reeves ------The technical lead has to answer for whatever problem which is within their responsibility to solve. The task may be to make something affordable that previously was not, for example. ------Tad emphasizes he was able to make the transition to technical lead once he was able to excel in his technical role. Then he could feel comfortable taking on responsibility for more than just himself. ---What makes someone want to take on the technical lead role or take on the extra responsibility? ------Tad has observed people who got into leadership because they like the feeling of superiority or enjoy giving orders. These are not things Tad enjoys. ------“In any group of people, if you see people going in random directions or you see something that is out of control / that’s not being controlled… either it’s just going to explode and die, or somebody’s going to pick it up and deal with it. Somebody’s going to say…‘I got this. I’m going to handle this.’ And I think that’s the same in any job anywhere. Somebody’s going to say ‘I’ll run this. I’ll make this come right. I’ll turn this around. I’ll deal with this, and I’ll let you know when it’s done.’ Somebody has to take ownership.” – Tad Reeves ------When someone asks for a plan of action, either there is no plan, or someone will speak up. ------Tad has found himself in a lead role because he decided to be the one to speak up when no one else would. ---------Volunteering when no one else would is a common theme among our guests. ------Nick’s opinion is we can take ownership of something, but we may need help from others to solve the problem. It doesn’t have to be just you that applies a fix even if you own a problem. ------Tad says the effective leader is one who can play to the strengths of others, recognizing who is best suited to complete each type of work. ---------“If you think that you’re going to win because you’re the best at everything and you’re just going to do it and everybody’s going to watch you and cheer or something like that, that’s not leading.” – Tad Reeves 34:31 – Relocation and a Love for Big Gear ------------------------------------------------ ---Tad tells the story of moving to Washington, DC. He worked for [UUNET] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUNET) in Ashburn, Virginia as part of their enterprise hosting group. At the time UUNET was the world’s largest internet provider in the world and was running all dial-up services for [America Online] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL) . ------Tad mentions this was his first time to get very hands on with what he calls “big gear” in supporting environments for very large customers. He learned about purpose-built applications for Windows, load balancers, and various server OEM hardware. ------“I love big gear. Big gear is so cool. You know, little kids with their Lamborghini posters on the wall and stuff like that? I would have put Sun and SGI posters on my wall. Some of that gear was so cool. I love to watch it go.” – Tad Reeves ------At State Farm Tad was supporting internal business facing systems mostly. At UUNET, it was all externally facing for different customers (big site launches). ------Tad was involved in some of his first datacenter moves during this time as well as some of his first website creation and migration projects. ---------Tad was involved in the launch of the PlayStation 2 for which he built a server cluster and Webtrends cluster (part of a greater project team focused on the implementation). He shares the story of everyone being forced to go live when the systems were not yet ready. ---------“After PlayStation went live, that was my first time of a big website go live. And watching the live traffic come into that thing where suddenly we had 10,000 visitors crawling all over that thing…I will remember that moment forever. It was exhilarating. Midnight…I actually got in my car and went over to the datacenter just so I could go and watch those lights…. This is a beautiful thing.” – Tad Reeves, on seeing the PlayStation 2 launch Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Do you have a list of the things you like about the work you do? ------Tad liked to build things that make an impact on others (something people will use), but your list may be different. You might enjoy a system you work with, a programming language you use, the people you work with, etc. ------If you don’t have a written list of your likes, you might not be as prepared for that next job as you could be. ------In [Episode 290] (https://nerd-journey.com/reduction-in-force-navigating-layoff-trends-in-tech-with-real-job-talk-1-2/) and [Episode 291] (https://nerd-journey.com/layoffs-and-job-market-impacts-experience-with-rifs-preferred-with-real-job-talk-2-2/) , we spoke to Kat Troyer and Liz Bronson (the hosts of RealJobTalk) about layoffs in tech. They shared a resource called the [Must Have List] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) that helps you determine your ideal job. Many of the questions are about the things you like in your work. ---------If we list out what we like, we can be looking for those things in new opportunities and think through how we can get more of those things in the work we do now. ---If you’re thinking of taking on the role of a technical lead, check out [Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/change-management-the-hardest-leap-and-developing-people-with-marni-coffey-2-3/) . ---For other episodes like this one, we would recommend the following: ------ [Episode 148 – The Magic of Building with Chris Wahl (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-magic-of-building-with-chris-wahl-1-2/) ---------Tad, much like Chris, seems to be a builder. ------ [Episode 149 – Find Your Gratitude, Find Your Joy with Chris Wahl (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/find-your-gratitude-find-your-joy-with-chris-wahl-2-2/) ---------Making a list of things we enjoy can help us find our gratitude for what we do each day. ------ [Episode 177 – Follow the Excitement, Follow the Challenge with Stephanie Wong (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/follow-the-excitement-follow-the-challenge-with-stephanie-wong-1-2/) ---------Stephanie Wong let her interests guide her career decisions, much like Tad. ------ [Episode 178 – Being a Great Generalist and Finding Your Voice with Stephanie Wong (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/being-a-great-generalist-and-finding-your-voice-with-stephanie-wong-2-2/) ------ [Episode 283 – Educate and Advocate: Certifications and Community Responsibility as a Joy with Jason Belk (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/educate-and-advocate-certifications-and-community-responsibility-as-a-joy-with-jason-belk-1-2/) ---------Jason Belk shares how each of us has to advocate for this industry by sharing what we do and some of the reasons we continue to do it. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

08 Oct 2024

42 MINS

42:46

08 Oct 2024

#289

AI and Automation: Repeatable Patterns for Learning, Consulting, and Growth with Erik Gross (2/2)

How many questions should you ask before offering your opinion? If you’re working as a consultant in tech, Erik Gross would advise not offering your opinion until you have the full context of the problem to be solved and the organization you’re trying to help. Erik’s recommendations for being successful as a consultant follow a repeatable pattern. And just as the consultant needs context to be effective, the learner needs context like an understanding of terminology when learning a new technology. In episode 295, guest Erik Gross shares his latest entrepreneurial endeavor and why he’s considering moving to full-time entrepreneurship. Erik will explain the AI and automation space, share some of the interesting tools in that space and their value in the business world, and make some recommendations for further education. Original Recording Date: 09-07-2024 [Erik Gross] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/madwizardmarketing/) is a developer, an architect, and an entrepreneur who has been very active in the tech space over the last 10-15 years. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Erik this time, check out [Episode 294] (https://nerd-journey.com/idea-management-supporting-business-growth-by-investing-in-people-with-erik-gross-1-2/) . Topics – Identity Crisis, A Pattern for Learning and The Expert’s Curse, Success as a Consultant, Entrepreneurial Growth and Pressure, Landing in the AI and Automation Space ============================================================================================================================================================================= ---This is a return visit for Erik to our show. You can find our previous discussions with him in the following episodes: ------ [Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/a-theme-of-learning-with-erik-gross-1-3/) ------ [Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/ownership-through-failures-an-entrepreneurs-take-on-difficult-decisions-with-erik-gross-2-3/) ------ [Episode 269 – Monetize Yourself: Leveraging Your Most Valuable Knowledge with Erik Gross (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/monetize-yourself-leveraging-your-most-valuable-knowledge-with-erik-gross-3-3/) 2:49 – Identity Crisis ---------------------------- ---If someone builds a business around something (creating training content, for example) and that is no longer their main focus as a business owner, do they start to wonder what the job really is now (almost like a small identity crisis)? ------Erik says this absolutely happens and shares some examples from his experience with [The Tech Academy] (https://www.learncodinganywhere.com/) . ---------Erik says he wasn’t the one who really knew how grow and run a team, feeling for a while it was a failure of his. Jack was the one who knew how to do these things. But, Erik accepted this was a skill that needed work and started thinking about ways to improve. Even if we achieve success in one or multiple areas, there will be other areas in which we can improve. ---------Nothing is going to be perfect. Erik shares how proud he is of the curriculum The Tech Academy has to offer, but he also knows it could be even better. Right now Erik is working a project to review all courses one step at a time and capture what needs to be improved (over 1300 hours of content to review). ---------“How much more could it serve our students? How much better could the product be? It’s already really good. That kind of iterative improvement thing…that gets me excited.” – Erik Gross 5:22 – A Pattern for Learning and The Expert’s Curse ---------------------------------------------------------- ---Erik had to build expertise in a new area to get his newest entrepreneurial endeavor started. How can people build expertise in the emerging AI (artificial intelligence)? Or is changing your focus to this area merely chasing something new and shiny? ------Erik has developed a workable pattern for learning new things that he’s refined over time. But it first took making mistakes and then making adjustments to his approach. ------Erik used to learn things the way we’re about to describe and no longer recommends it. ---------Erik gives the example of learning [React] (https://react.dev/) . ---------He used to approach this by finding a current real-world project to build with React. This would only make him frustrated. ------Here’s the pattern of learning Erik recommends for himself, his students, and his coaching clients. ---------When learning about a new area, Erik identifies the terms in that area he does not know, and before building anything, Erik will define those terms to ensure he understands what they mean. ---------The term “state” is used frequently when working with React, for example. It was important to clear up the meaning of this term in the context of React due to its overuse in other areas. Do this for all other terms unknown to you. ---------Find a simple tutorial that ONLY teaches that subject. If we continue the React example, Erik points out most tutorials he found to learn React included other technologies such as [JSX] (https://legacy.reactjs.org/docs/introducing-jsx.html) , [Babel] (https://babeljs.io/) , and [TypeScript] (https://www.typescriptlang.org/) at a minimum. ---------“At a minimum, they were teaching all 4 of those subjects in one tutorial, but they rarely clarified that they were teaching you 4 things. I finally found one that taught the simplicity. You know what React is? It’s 2 JavaScript libraries…. So, all this React library is really doing as one of its core functions is that I can use some text to create HTML, and it makes parts of that easier. And I have a reusable chunk of element on my page. Cool.” – Erik Gross, on the shortcoming of tutorials to learn React ---------Listen to Erik describe what happens and what the learner misses when trying to understand how React works and other tools like JSX are added into the mix. ------To re-state this learning process in general: ---------Find and clear up your understanding of specific unique terms. ---------Find a simple tutorial focused on only the technology you want to learn about. ---------Then, try to build something of your own devising, but keep it simple! ------Erik says if you can do the above 3 things, you will usually be able to approach a production problem with that specific technology. ------Nick likes the foundational, focused approach because it allows you to add more components and other technologies. ------“I’ve done this more times that I can count, and it’s the curse of the technology educator. We assume too much prior knowledge on the part of the student…. It’s really hard as an expert to genuinely remember what it was like to be a beginner. It’s really difficult. You have to consciously try to do that. But when you do, you produce curriculum that is accessible to anybody….” – Erik Gross ---------Listen to Erik describe this happening with some of the curriculum he built for a JavaScript course. ---------Erik has a passion for the [STEM] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science,_technology,_engineering,_and_mathematics) fields and reminds us that too many educators often make this mistake without knowing we’ve made it. 12:25 – Success as a Consultant ------------------------------------- ---Nick references the discussion with Erik from [Episode 267] (https://nerd-journey.com/a-theme-of-learning-with-erik-gross-1-3/) focused on what is happening in the learner’s mind and meeting the person where they are. The technology instructor has to do this, but Erik has also been a consultant. Nick feels the consultant can use their role to educate as well. How are the roles of the educator and the consultant both similar and different from each other? ------We spoke to Dale McKay about being a consultant in [Episode 288] (https://nerd-journey.com/guardrails-for-growth-a-mentors-experience-with-dale-mckay-1-2/) and [Episode 289] (https://nerd-journey.com/enhance-your-personal-brand-feedback-as-a-catalyst-for-change-with-dale-mckay-2-2/) . Erik would highly encourage listeners to go back and listen to these! ------Erik says there is a difference in approach to consulting vs. teaching something as an instructor, but it starts with your audience and what is happening with them. ---------Erik was a contract technologist for many years, including work as a cloud transformation consultant. He tells us people may resent consultants brought in to help a company. In Erik’s experience, sometimes he was welcomed, and other times was not. ---------A consultant can run into challenges when dealing with SMEs (subject matter experts). ------Erik would sum up the successful pattern for being a consultant as “listen more than you talk.” ---------“Most engineers…in fact, probably all of us, are hard wired to solve problems. When you’re early in your consultant career, the moment a problem comes out of a client’s mouth you instantly mentally start solving it. And sometimes you even start solving it out loud, which is a big mistake. For me it has everything to do with the fact that you actually don’t have all the context yet. You’re making a fundamental engineering mistake, which we all do from time to time….” – Erik Gross ---------Context can be things like the ramification of making a specific change to a system, other systems a specific system may be integrated with, etc. ---------A consultant has expertise and usually knowledge of a business domain, but they don’t know the context of the company they are working with in full when they begin. The job at first is to be quiet and listen. ---------Most people want to talk about themselves and the problems they have. Erik says the consultant needs to ask enough questions so that once they give advice, it is valuable to the audience you are trying to help (an engineering leader, a subject matter expert, etc.). ---------The consultant is not stuck in the problem a team of engineers at a company is trying to solve. Hopefully the consultant has gathered information from a number of perspectives within an organization before deciding to give an opinion. ---------Avoid giving advice and opinions early on in an engagement. You do not know enough yet to fully understand what the problem is. ---------“If you take that approach as a consultant, there will be a moment where they trust you. And when they trust you, now when you go to teach them something, they will listen. If you do it a moment before that shift, they are going to be resistant to you trying to teach them anything. That’s been my expeirence at least. …A lot of fundamental differences between that training and consulting thing, but make no mistake about it – there is a point as a consultant where you genuinely do have to teach them things. Just don’t make the mistake of doing it before you have their trust that you’re genuinely an authority. The fact that they hired you or your company for a whole bunch of money does not make you an authority at all. That’s got to be earned. And you earn it by asking questions and understanding.” – Erik Gross, on a consultant’s role ---------As we ask more questions, our questions get better. The continued questions also indicate a genuine interest in what the customer is struggling with. Erik has given opinions in the past before asking enough questions, and it was a mistake. ------Do people ever get tired of answering that next question? ---------Erik says if the person asking is genuinely interested / finds something fascinating, people do not mind answering more questions. ---------“You can’t fake genuine interest with someone. They’ll know immediately. But you can create your own interest. You’re in control of that…. I’ve never experienced it that people get tired of answering the next question when they know you genuinely want to know or you’re genuinely acknowledging something that you actually really find admirable or cool about what they’re doing or that you’re fascinated by.” – Erik Gross ---------Erik demonstrates this by asking about an Albert Einstein picture in Nick’s background. ---------Finding interesting things about other people or the situation they are in is a skill we can develop. ---------Erik says you can ask some personal or private questions if the person knows you really care. ------Nick thinks this is a great approach to take if you’re the newest member of any team. ---------One of Erik’s favorite places to visit on the internet is [Not Always Right] (https://notalwaysright.com/) . It shows you all the wrong ways to interact with people. Many of us have met someone new to a team or organization who tries to tell us how awesome they are. Erik would encourage us to not be that person and to ask questions of others based on a genuine interest in learning about them and what they do. 21:50 – Entrepreneurial Growth and Pressure ------------------------------------------------- ---Let’s go back to Erik’s desire to possibly pursue entrepreneurship full time. It’s an interesting take in a job market where we are seeing a lot of layoffs. Is that pattern part of the reasoning behind Erik’s thinking? ------Erik says he feels a little insecure when there’s only one source of income. If there is an expense to be paid, he finds it helpful to ensure that exact amount comes from 3 different sources. ------Erik gives the example of bringing on a new team member as an entrepreneur / startup founder. ---------It’s a critical decision to bring on another person, and Erik tells us he makes the decision right before he really needs the person but doesn’t wait until things are super urgent. Waiting too long to hire a new team member can result in a poor onboarding experience and cause other problems. ---------To hire someone new, Erik needs to secure in advance at least 3 times the amount he will need to pay an employee. ---------Erik describes meeting a candidate who had valuable skills but who he could not yet hire full-time. This person had valuable skills building custom software in the AI and automation space. Erik was honest about his situation with the candidate, and the candidate expressed her desire for full-time work. Erik shares that he later closed another client engagement that allowed him to hire this specific candidate. ---------Erik feels it was the pressure he put on himself to close more business based that made things happen. He was pursuing something he wanted (to scale the business and hire the right talent). ---------“I’ve had a lot of failures in life and a lot of successes, and I’ve learned the successes usually come from throwing myself into a situation where I have to perform…. The fact is…you can always choose to give up. But when I put myself in a situation where I’m like, ‘you have to do this,’ you grow. And you start to demonstrate to yourself…we are capable of so much more than we give ourselves credit for, but sometimes you can’t learn that until you just literally jump in the ring.” – Erik Gross ---------In our society we might hear messages about pressure being bad or putting us under stress. But we grow when we’re under pressure. Big business targets require us to exert pressure to achieve them. The pressure begins internally, so we have to determine how much of it we can tolerate. ---------“If you can put a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself and perform, you start to build a culture of people around you that thrive on that. And the kind of people that really don’t like it leave. Now, I am not advocating in that being a jerk. That’s got nothing to do with pressure at all. But yeah, that’s what I’ve found to be real for me at least.” – Erik Gross ------How do we increase the pressure on ourselves without crippling our performance? How can we find the right amount? ---------For Erik, if something is a big jump but doesn’t seem completely silly, he will do it. If the risk is too great to the people around him, Erik won’t pursue something / he will say no. ---------“It isn’t just about you. For any one of us, especially entrepreneurs…every moment you have during a day when you apply your energy and creativity to something is precious, and no matter what kind of a life situation you have, those moments that you’re putting into that entrepreneurial journey are moments you’re not spending somewhere else. It has to be worth it. And if you take that entrepreneurial journey or whatever activity it is you’re putting all that energy into and put that other unbelievably aspect of your life (your friends, your loved ones) at too much risk, that’s not ok.” – Erik Gross ---------Erik will do some risk but not too much. When we last spoke, Erik mentioned he knew he was not going to be the executive who could build The Tech Academy. He was the educator and trainer and put the pressure on himself to allow the business to scale, bringing Jack on as co-founder. ---------We can find out our own tolerances for risk by experimenting in lower stakes situations, for example. ---------Erik mentions [The Power Offer] (https://www.powerofferworkshop.com/) as a way to de-risk decisions. Building something only to watch it fail months later in the market can be risky. ---------“If you can find a way to corral that risk, then do so. But you can’t let fear hold you back…. Have a positive enough opinion of yourself…to know that you’ll never truly stay down. I think that your confidence and certainty in your own abilities is the most valuable asset you have. I’ve got a lot of really cool assets in terms of technology skill and writing and teaching. Great. They are not the most valuable thing I have. The most valuable thing I have is an unkillable certainty in myself. I didn’t always have it. Went through fire to achieve it. But you have to be willing to jump into the fire sometimes.” – Erik Gross 30:17 – Landing in the AI and Automation Space ---------------------------------------------------- ---How can the technologist add value and knowledge as it relates to AI (artificial intelligence) without shifting all focus there? ------What the media does not do a great job of is defining terms. ------We should remember that AI is many things – [ComputerVision] (https://www.ibm.com/topics/computer-vision) , robotics, etc. There are categories. The popular thing we’re calling AI right now is usually [generative AI] (https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/generative-AI) centered around [natural language processing] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_language_processing) . ------Many automation tools that are low code or no code type solutions get lumped into the AI category, but they really aren’t AI. When we refer to the AI and automation space, they are separate things. ------If you’re not building expertise using generative AI tools like [ChatGPT] (https://chatgpt.com/) or [Claude] (https://claude.ai/) , you are doing yourself a disservice. You can at least use these to improve your own personal efficiency. ------Erik shares the genesis moment of the business he’s working on now. ---------In the 2010s, his development work centered around .NET and its [MVC framework] (https://dotnet.microsoft.com/en-us/apps/aspnet/mvc) ---------Erik got exposed to JavaScript and [Node.js] (https://nodejs.org/en) . Node is a great training tool that can be used to quickly create an API project for someone to learn how to work with APIs. Erik started to want the same kind of thing for C# (a low effort, easy way to create a nice training environment), but he could not find anything. ---------Last May he decided to see what ChatGPT could do to solve this problem. This was a really smart decision because what Erik wanted to solve was very precise, unique, had defined context and constraints…all the things needed for a good prompt. ---------Within 45 seconds, Erik got a perfect answer. ---------“Generative AI changes everything. It changes everything.” – Erik Gross ------More enterprises are increasing their willingness to let power users leverage low code or no code solutions for buidling in-house automations. ---------“You can deliver value more rapidly in certain contexts, but you need to know how to use these tools first. Thankfully for an engineer the learning curve is really, really small. When we talk about non-engineers, there is a bit more of a hurdle.” – Erik Gross ---------Even if you work in the enterprise space where these tools might not be allowed or used, you can build expertise using these tools and use it as a career leverage point. This will allow you to identify a need (i.e. automating a business process or processes) that can be served by low code or no code applications that others will not see. ---------These tools also integrate with generative AI tools and could allow insertion of natural language processing. ---------Use of these tools can help the engineer and of course also the entrepreneur. ---If someone wants to become a software developer, can they start with low code tools and make a shift? ------Erik says this depends on what your end goal is. ---------If you want to be a working technologist (software developer, engineer, architect, quality assurance, etc.) of some kind, likely low code / no code is not your entry point because you need to understand the fundamentals. Fundamentals in this context would be how computers work, web technologies, how software is made, algorithms, etc. ---------Algorithms might be the most transferrable fundamental to / from low code and no code solutions. ---------Erik also says someone may do so well at focusing on low code and no code solutions they may not want to become an engineer. ------If we look at this through the lens of [Most Valuable Knowledge] (https://yourcareerarchitect.com/) … ---------Any time we are buidling a product or service, we should think about who it will help. ---------Being good at something and very interested in it is a great start, but the third piece of the Most Valuable Knowledge Framework is considering where this will intersect with the marketplace demand. ---------Erik feels like large enterprises haven’t adopted low code / no code solutions very much and sees them leaning more toward customized software development, which has its own specific requirements (scalability, availability, infrastructure, etc.). ---------For the small business, low code and no code can really make an impact. These shops may not be able to pay for highly customized software solutions. ---------“We’ll abstract away as much as we can. We’re going to abstract away all that infrastructure stuff. Can I just write a function and drop it into Azure Functions or AWS Lambda? That’s the fun part. Look at this algorithm I built. Boom – it drops in and it works. So, we’re getting more and more towards that, but we’re still absolutely not accessible to a small to medium size business with what we deliver…. Now, with low code / no code tools and leveraging natural language processing (ChatGPT or another generative AI), you can accomplish things for them internally that we couldn’t even 18 months ago.” – Erik Gross ---------Smaller businesses also don’t generally know how software is made and might not be great at gathering requirements. ---------Erik gives an example of a client that services crawl spaces. Listen to his description of the challenge of understanding which of this client’s customers is eligible for payment collections on any given day. It takes hours to gather the information from different systems, and the data changes quickly over time. People were using Google Sheets and their internal CRM system to generate the data needed. ---------Erik talks about a tool called [AirTable] (https://www.airtable.com/) (basically a highly performant online database) that allows building a 2-way data synchronization between sources and can show the right view of the data needed to understand and forecast payment collections. All of this can be done without needing to write code! The automation tools have been gaining popularity, but we’ve only made it here because of generative AI according to Erik. These kinds of solutions provide small businesses with something valuable which was previously outside their reach. ------If you want to learn more about low code / no code tools… ---------Erik would recommend checking out content by [Liam Ottley] (https://www.youtube.com/@LiamOttley) and joining his [Skool Community] (skool.com/ai-automation-agency-hub-8466) to network with others. ---------Erik also loves to help people in this area. You can visit the [Mad Wizard Marketing Website] (https://madwizardmarketing.com/) if you just want to talk or find content [on YouTube] (https://www.youtube.com/@MadWizardMarketing/videos) . ---If you have other questions or want to follow up with Erik on today’s discussion… ------E-mail Erik at [erikg@madwizardmarketing.com] (mailto:erikg@madwizardmarketing.com) , and feel free to ask him about anything. He is willing to spend 30 minutes talking to almost anyone. ------Erik loves the technology field and has found it to be filled with some incredible people. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Nick really liked the pattern of learning Erik mentioned and the singular focus. Finding a tutorial that only includes one specific technology is the hard part but may be a way to guard against that expert’s curse. ---We can apply the idea of defining terms we don’t know to consulting by making sure we understand what people mean when they use specific terms like “cloud,” for example. It’s a way to prevent making false assumptions and to get the full context. ---Knowledge of tools we may not use at work today (i.e. like low code and no code solutions) can help us be ready to solve problems in interesting ways should the need arise. This is why it’s important to stay on top of technological trends. ------Nick would also caution listeners to use generative AI tools only within their company’s policy for it and be mindful of data privacy / confidentiality. ---There were some undertones of an identity crisis in becoming an entrepreneuer after starting as a technologist, especially when you had off things you used to do. ------Erik had to focus on the marketing, sales, and business growth and understood he needed to hire people to do development. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

01 Oct 2024

50 MINS

50:10

01 Oct 2024

#288

Idea Management: Supporting Business Growth by Investing in People with Erik Gross (1/2)

Entrepreneurs have no shortage of ideas. But how do they know if a new business idea is actually a good idea? Our guest this week would advise seeking fast feedback during the ideation process to save time, preserve energy, and remain focused on delivering value to your intended audience. This week in episode 294 we’re rejoined by Erik Gross to discuss some of the lessons learned from his recent entrepreneurial pursuits. We’ll talk through how the entrepreneur can go from ideation to taking action. This includes generating ideas, capturing ideas, scrutinizing or testing ideas, and deciding to abandon certain ideas. We also discuss how the entrepreneur, business owner, or manager can invest in employees even before they start work by making roles occupiable. And it starts with putting all the pre-requisites in place to write good job descriptions. Original Recording Date: 09-07-2024 Topics – Entrepreneurs and Ideas, Focus and Subjecting Ideas to Scrutiny, Sources of Feedback, Scaling Business Opportunities with Automation, Entrepreneurial Succession Planning and Attitudes, Investing in People and Making Roles Occupiable, Thoughts on Employee Onboarding, Transferring Duties to Others ================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================= 2:29 – Entrepreneurs and Ideas ------------------------------------ --- [Erik Gross] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/madwizardmarketing/) is a developer, an architect, and an entrepreneur who has been very active in the tech space over the last 10-15 years. ------This is a return visit for Erik to our show. You can find our previous discussions with him in the following episodes: --------- [Episode 267 – A Theme of Learning with Erik Gross (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/a-theme-of-learning-with-erik-gross-1-3/) --------- [Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/ownership-through-failures-an-entrepreneurs-take-on-difficult-decisions-with-erik-gross-2-3/) --------- [Episode 269 – Monetize Yourself: Leveraging Your Most Valuable Knowledge with Erik Gross (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/monetize-yourself-leveraging-your-most-valuable-knowledge-with-erik-gross-3-3/) ---Though we did talk about entrepreneurship a little in episode 268, does the entrepreneur naturally get a bunch of ideas to chase, or is there more science behind it? ------Erik knows many entrepreneurs and says in general the entrepreneur has a plethora of new ideas, and this can be both good and bad. ------Erik learned the idea itself is less valuable than executing on an idea, but he still gets excited when he gets what seems like a great idea. ------“If you’re paying attention, if you’re interested in helping people, if you’re interested in starting and growing things…you’ll have lots of ideas. Is it going to withstand a scrutiny from the marketplace? Will people pay for it? Is it something that has legs? There are a lot of other questions. But yeah, the ideas…most entrepreneurs…they are full of something, but generally ideas are what they are full of.” – Erik Gross ---Do most entrepreneurs keep a list of ideas they will go back and reference? ------Erik, like many technologists, is a nerd for tools. He uses [Obsidian] (https://obsidian.md/) to capture ideas. ------When an idea hits, Erik has been known to pull over if driving to capture the idea and get it out of his head. Otherwise the idea might be lost, which is a terrible feeling. ------Even if people make lists of ideas, it does not mean they are going to execute on any of them. Periodic review of your ideas is a good practice because something you jotted down a while back may be related to what you are currently doing. ------Nick says keeping a list of ideas makes sense whether we are an entrepreneur or just a technologist, a people leader, etc. These ideas can be for things we want to study, blog about, research, etc. Where Nick fails is going back to review past ideas. ------Erik does go back and review past ideas he’s captured (could be for product design, offer design, etc.)…usually about once per month. ---------Often times something will trigger him to go back and look through past ideas. ---------He may have captured a specific tool which could come in handy later, for example. ---------“I’m just deeply curious and interested in a lot of things, and especially in the entrepreneurial space, I have a hard time not thinking about it.” – Erik Gross ---------Erik would tell you he is rarely not working. He might be thinking about how to solve a specific problem or physically doing work. 7:17 – Focus and Subjecting Ideas to Scrutiny --------------------------------------------------- ---How does the entrepreneur focus their attention in the right area when they have multiple ideas? ------“I learned a while ago that when you get that urge to look at a new shiny object…generally, it’s because you think that shiny object is going to fix a problem you’re having executing. But almost always, the plan you put in motion to execute in that area was based on some earlier guidance that at one point you really agreed with. It made sense to you…. Most of the time, its failure to actually get the performance or the results that you wanted is due to your applying it incorrectly.” – Erik Gross ---------Erik says we can go back and look at what we were trying to make work in the first place, review the source material now that we have more experience, and be honest about where we failed to execute. ---------This process usually prevents looking at the shiny object and enables us to apply an engineering mindset to the recipe for success we were trying to follow. How can you go back and correct any mistakes? ------For those in any creative or engineering space, Erik recommends reading [A Technique for Producing Ideas] (https://www.amazon.com/technique-producing-ideas-simple-formula/dp/1515307972) by James Webb Young and says it lays out a mental model for generating ideas that is as reliable as engineering. ---------When Erik discovered the book, it was the first time he had seen that mental model laid out as a process. Erik also realized that he had been using the same mental model for years. Listen to how he describes his own “mental machine.” ------After generating what seems like a great idea, an entrepreneur has to willingly subject the idea to scrutiny. Putting your idea into the marketplace of ideas or the marketplace of services and products takes some courage and humility. ---------“Be willing to be wrong. Be willing to take sometimes harsh feedback or criticism. It’s so much better to find out very quickly…. That feedback loop, especially in the early processes of an entrepreneurial launch of a product or service, that feedback loop should be hours or days.” – Erik Gross, on how entrepreneurs can think like engineers and use feedback loops ---------Fast feedback may come in the form of being advised not to do something. It would be better to get horrible feedback quickly instead of after months of effort spent building something. ---Does becoming ok with failing fast remove attachment of ego to the idea? ------Erik says yes and shares the story of working for a company that did 3D modeling around 2010. ------While working there, Erik got what he thought was a great idea for a pocketbook for devices that could also hold other things. ------Erik remembers sharing the idea with his management at the software company, and they told him it was not a good idea. While it was demoralizing to Erik, he knows they were right, especially with the change in form factor of mobile devices over time. ------The experience of subjecting ideas to scrutiny can be humbling, but Erik stresses the importance of doing this very early on. ------“When you get knocked down, the only person who can pick you up is you. And you have to agree to stay down. You have to agree to it…. It’s fine to get knocked down. Of course, it’s going to happen. It’s fine to feel bad for a little while. What are you going to do a little while later? Are you going to stand back up and jump back in, or are you not? That’s personal responsibility and integrity, and it’s a choice.” – Erik Gross 13:57 – Sources of Feedback --------------------------------- ---Where should the entrepreneur seek the fast feedback on an idea? ------Erik would encourage listeners to check out [Joel Erway] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xk-c2UNbgU4&t=76s) , creator of [The Power Offer] (https://www.powerofferworkshop.com/) . ------In the online marketing space, we see consistent launches of new products and services. ------The Power Offer as a framework says you should call out your specific audience, which requires you think deeply about who you want to sell to (i.e. an identity or persona). ---------Erik reminds us that we cannot sell a new product or service to everyone. ------You’re asking a simple question to your intended audience about their interest in getting a specific benefit without certain obstacles or pain points. ---------Erik says it’s been extremely valuable to ask this type of question and that he’s done it probably 8 different times in the last couple of years. ---------Start with your warm market, which Erik defines as anyone you have the ability to contact right now. This might include social media followers, e-mail subscribers, etc. ---------“Business owners – if I could help you make more money and improve efficiency by leveraging cutting edge AI and automation tools without having to pay for expensive, time-consuming custom applications, would you be interested? …That’s one of the ones that worked. The ones that didn’t work are legion, but thank goodness I found out super fast.” – Erik Gross, an example of how he leveraged the Power Offer ------Erik reminds us that people do not pay for your product or service. They pay for the benefit it provides. ---------It’s important to specify the audience so people can understand if what you’re offering can benefit them. And if it does, they will pay for it. ---------"It’s just a rapid feedback loop. That’s all it really is. It’s your chance to find out really quickly whether it’s got any legs. And in general, the people in your warm network are often very similar to the kind of people that you want to be working with anyway…. I have tremendous admiration for an entrepreneur, for a business owner who is willing to put themselves out there and try to grow and build something. I speak to them because I am them. " – Erik Gross, on leveraging your warm network to vet ideas ---------Erik is able to identify with the group that a product or service could help. Nick thinks that is important as part of this. ------If no one expresses interest in your idea, it’s ok because you won’t spend time going and making the thing. ---------Erik says no one will remember that we didn’t make something. He’s tried out several ideas, and only a few of them were met with a lot of interest. ------“It’s real easy when you come up with what you think is a really good idea to only look at that thing from your viewpoint. To get honestly really emotional about it or attached to it, it’s really really easy. An entrepreneur shouldn’t be concerned with their own viewpoint very much…. They need to consider the viewpoint of their ideal audience their ideal customer…. You are there to serve them. You are there to provide more value than they paid you for, and that’s really hard to figure out how to do if the only point of view about your product or service that you look at is yours….” – Erik Gross ---------In addition to feedback from the intended audience, we need people in our lives who are willing to give us critical feedback without fear of hurt feelings. 20:32 – Scaling Business Opportunities with Automation ------------------------------------------------------------ ---How did the Most Valuable Knowledge Framework as we discussed in [Episode 269] (https://nerd-journey.com/monetize-yourself-leveraging-your-most-valuable-knowledge-with-erik-gross-3-3/) come into play as part of Erik’s ideation processes? ------Erik says this is the earlier stage of ideation and something to help you think through what you could do. You might use Most Valuable Knowledge or some other mechanism to generate ideas. ------If you’ve generated multiple ideas that you like, then it is time to go and get feedback on them as we’ve discussed. ---How did Erik’s business idea end up landing in the automation space? ------Erik says this one took longer than some of the other ideas he’s tried to test out in the marketplace. ------About a year ago he was thinking about the opportunities in the online marketing and coaching space, and Erik stumbled upon [Make.com] (https://www.make.com/en) . ---------He bought a lifetime membership, tinkered with it a little for social media content creation, thought it was cool, and then didn’t think about it much. ------A couple of months ago Erik was working to find business opportunities with more scalability than what he had been doing. ---------Erik kept coming back to the automation space, but it seemed mechanical and kind of boring because the problem he was trying to solve was a little boring. ---------After remembering Erik had signed up for the Make.com platform, he decided to go research how other people were using it. He also found content produced by [Liam Ottley] (https://www.youtube.com/@LiamOttley) on building a business in the AI and automation agency space. ---------“Wasn’t there something I was using or looked at a year ago…that might fit this new sort of area I’m interested in?” – Erik Gross ---Did landing back on the same tool again have anything to do with not executing plans the way Erik wanted? ------Erik gives the example of his coaching business. He loves the 1-1 interaction with clients but could not figure out how to scale it to a larger operation. ------Part of the reason Erik is looking at entrepreneurial activities is to find something that can safely replace his 9 to 5 job. ------If Erik were to become a full-time entrepreneur, in addition to financial stability, the work would need to satisfy his internal purpose to help people (something he loves doing). ------“I want to see the person that I’m helping and look at them before, during, and after and just watch them expand and grow and do great. Whether that’s career coaching, whether that’s a business owner whose employees suddenly have 30% more of their time for highly valuable skilled knowledge work because of the automation solutions we build for them…I want to see that help. That’s my gratification. And yes, I want to get paid well for it.” – Erik Gross ------Nick says getting the gratification one is seeking makes us more likely to iterate on an idea to improve it and make it more valuable to the people you’re trying to help – and execute the plan more efficiently. ------Erik believes we should be working, should be of service to others, and that we should be busy. Erik also works very hard so he can enjoy leisure time. 26:36 – Entrepreneurial Succession Planning and Attitudes --------------------------------------------------------------- ---How can the entrepreneur learn to notice it’s time to take a vacation and allow themselves to do it? ------Erik has heard about the idea that an entrepreneur cannot take a vacation. ---------“If you have a business that requires you to be in the business, you don’t actually have a business.” – Erik Gross, sharing a strongly worded viewpoint he has heard from other successful people ---------Erik’s take is that each person has a unique level of sustained effort to put toward something. ---------“I’ve worked through that before, and I’ve learned that you actually harm yourself when you do it, and you harm the activity you’re trying to grow. The reason it’s growing is because of your drive, purpose, creative energy. And we can fool ourselves when we’re getting…burnt out, but it isn’t the same as it was when you’re not burned out.” – Erik Gross ---------Erik shares an example with us from his own life. He’s been working very hard for a number of weeks but shares a specific instance where he intentionally chose to take a morning to relax. ------Suppose you’re an entrepreneur who accepts they are going to reach the point of burnout. ---------Erik stresses the importance of having a strategy for finding the right people you can trust to take on some of your responsibilities. ---------“And if that isn’t part of your initial process of planning this business, then you are really planning to have a much higher pressure second job.” – Erik Gross ---------Maybe you accept that at first a company will be just you, but you need to identify at what point you will bring on more staff, how you will find them, and how to know what they should be allowed to work on. ---------This is also helping to set up the eventual future sale of your company if that’s an outcome you want to consider. ---Nick labels the above as succession planning. Entrepreneurs need to do this as do people managers. Many people want to hoard knowledge and struggle to want to train others or offload responsibilities. What is Erik’s take? ------Erik has seen attitude this far too often, especially in service-based businesses. ---------It starts when an individual becomes extremely talented in an area like masonry, plumbing, etc. and then wants to grow their business. ------Erik has observed 2 things that can harm growth. ---------The first is being unable to let go of delivery of the actual product or service, unable to completely trust that someone else will do it. The business owner / expert may truly believe no one else can do as good of a job as they can (due to the pride they find in their work). ---------Some are of the opinion training their people well means the people will leave and become competition. This is the same to Erik as “ideas are worthless. Execution is everything.” Building a person’s experience in service delivery does not mean they automatically know how to run a business. They do not see the pressure to make payroll or understand how to handle the marketing, the referrals, and other administrative tasks. It’s better for the business owner to invest in the people, even if they leave and go into business for themselves. 33:48 – Investing in People and Making Roles Occupiable ------------------------------------------------------------- ---How do you figure out who to invest in whether you’re a business owner, a mentor, or a hiring manager? What are the qualities we should be looking for (keeping in mind our backgrounds are in technology)? ------This is something Erik and his co-founder Jack really had to work through for [The Tech Academy] (https://www.learncodinganywhere.com/) . In the beginning, they did everything. Early on they defined a strategy to help in this area that’s been successful. ------“Periodically, we would list out…all the things still on our plate. At the beginning it was everything…. We’d list out all the different roles we were fulfilling. And then we would figure out which one of those roles is keeping us from selling and delivering, the pillars of the organization. Because those are things we had strong expertise in and that guaranteed the survival of the company. So we’d look at…what are those things on that list that we’re doing that aren’t actually selling or actually delivering? And there would be a lot of them. Ok, which one would free us up the most?” – Erik Gross, on what he and his co-founder at The Tech Academy would do as part of a strategy ------At this point people usually go out and start hiring, but Erik suggests there are more steps to do this well. ---------"You have to define the role you want them to do and make that role occupiable…. ---------Making a role occupiable means listing out everything that role does, the tools someone in that role would need, and the process used to get tasks completed. The process may be almost habit for you, but you need to be thinking of people who are new to the company / team and would not know this by default. They immediately would have some background and understanding of what to do. ---------Erik says consider any basic orientation outside the person’s role that is needed. If that doesn’t exist, you will need to prepare it. ---------All of the above takes time, and it’s time away from selling and delivering and doing the role in question. ---------“But it’s worth the time to organize it because what will happen is as you define that role, you will start to get a very clear picture of who could actually occupy that role. And so when you actually go out and promote it you can describe the exact kind of person you’re looking for, the exact ideal skillset, the exact attitude because you laid it all out, very clearly, on paper.” – Erik Gross ---------Doing this up front is a service to anyone walking into the role. That person then walks into a role that is well-defined. ---------Erik shares a story from his time at IBM as a client / server developer. There was no explanation of what the role meant or what he would really be doing day to day. The onboarding document was outdated, and it took 3 weeks for him to gain access to the proper systems to make meaningful contributions. 37:53 – Thoughts on Employee Onboarding --------------------------------------------- ---What are some of the questions Erik wishes he had asked in interviews based on the idea of writing a really good job description for someone? ------What does onboarding look like? Erik loves to ask this question. ---------If the company doesn’t place emphasis on onboarding, it’s not a good sign. ---------In technology roles specifically, Erik values a set of onboarding documents with some knowledge of how to access credentials to required systems. Someone should be able to follow these without needing to bother existing team members. ---------“I never want to be that guy or girl that arrives on the team and is constantly asking people for information that they know should already be written down somewhere. Them answering is keeping them from their much more valuable work.” – Erik Gross ------Is there an architecture overview of the systems in use? ------Does an onboarding document include the tools one would need to install, where to get credentials, location of code libraries, etc.? ------Employee onboarding is more than just HR stuff like payroll and tax information. ---If we look at this from the other side, how quickly can the entrepreneur impart context to new employees? ------Relevant context would be things like: ---------Why the company was formed (i.e. purpose) ---------Who the company serves ---------The benefit people get when they interact with the company ---------The products and services offered to provide the benefit ---------How the products and services are delivered ---------Who new employees would work with to make a contribution to the above ------A web developer needs more context than just being told to build an application to deliver actual value. ------Erik says impart the context to the new employee, and then show them how to do the processes of their job. ------All that context comes from doing the prep work of clearly defining the role (which Erik would classify as making the role occupiable). ---------Erik mentions doing all of the work up front somehow enables you to find the right person. It’s happened to him a number of times. ---------“I hire a lot of overseas developers and technical talent of all sorts…. I’ve found that every time I do a really good job of fully describing…the exact bounds of their role and what my plans are for onboarding them and how I’m going to pay them and how I’m going to do continuing education for them…which parts of my service or product will I have them do initially and then what will I have them do as they get up to speed. When I’ve defined all of that, now I can craft a really well-optimized job posting. And I get the kind of people that I want to be talking to to respond. And I can quickly in 2, 3, 4, 5 days filter through that…have 3 people I interview, and hire one of them.” – Erik Gross ---------When Erik does not do things like the above, he doesn’t get the right people as quickly, and he might not know the right questions to ask in interviews. Not doing the pre-work can make someone look unprofessional. ---Sometimes we put effort into building expertise in areas because it can bring us pleasure, and other times we build expertise to avoid pain. The pre-work we are talking about for the job descriptions and making the role occupiable is more of the latter. ------Bringing on people means you are asking them to join you in a mission. ------Certainly you need a viable, sustainable company that can pay you and your employees. But it was built for a reason. ------“You can treat them just like they’re interchangeable, just like gears in a machine, or you can go ‘no, they’re not.’ When you treat them as individuals and care about the kind of people you bring in, it’s unbelievable how much extra they bring to the table that you never found out even during those initial interviews.” – Erik Gross, on treating people well by being prepared ------Erik has consistently found the people he’s hired know about other things that surprised him in a good way. And it led to deeper collaboration. But it was due to getting clarity up front to make the role accessible and occupiable. 43:57 – Transferring Duties to Others ------------------------------------------- ---Does writing the job description allow you to accept or let go of the fact that duties will be offloaded to someone else? ------Erik says it does but not always. ------At The Tech Academy, the hardest duty to let go of and offload for Erik and Jack was content creation. ------Erik is very good at making curriculum and teaching. So is Jack. They had written nearly 50 job descriptions for the company before finally handling the curriculum / content creation role (including sales and delivery). ------Part of their challenge was clarifying the thought processes, the background data, and the methodology behind imparting technical knowledge effectively. ------“I can look at it right away and know, but it’s that expert’s curse. How do I articulate what went on in my evaluation of that piece of data?” – Erik Gross, on clarifying curriculum creation methodologies ------Erik and Jack created an apprenticeship program in which participants would iteratively try to create a piece of content with feedback on each iteration. Upon each iteration, Erik and Jack would correct the person but also go back to the training materials they had created to determine what might be missing. ------“You asked this question in the context of being unwilling to let go. There is nothing that you bring to the table as the business owner, entrepreneur, or creator of the thing…there is nothing you can’t transfer, even if it seems like it’s so intrinsic to who and what you are. But that was not an easy lesson for us to learn. We both had to learn that one.” – Erik Gross, on learning how to transfer their knowledge to someone else Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---The Power Offer sounds like something that could be used to propose new projects within your company and possibly to expand our scope influence within the company. Nick gives the example of a small problem with a marketing system indicating a deeper root cause that needs fixing. ------Our warm network is our co-workers. ------Another way to test our ideas is to share them with members of our technical community (in-person or online). ---Erik shared a good process the entrepreneur, business owner, or hiring manager could follow before creating a job requisition. ------Identify the work someone in this role would need to do at a high level. It could be like Erik described, work that is getting in the way of more valuable work or a specific set of work that needs a dedicated person. Then get more specific: ---------What are the processes someone in this role would need to follow? ---------What are the tools the person in this role would use? ---------What systems would someone need to access in this role? ---------What knowledge do they require upon hire vs. what you will teach them? ---------Who will the person in this role collaborate with? ---------How will the work done in this role change over time? ---------What salary is appropriate for someone in the role? ------Being very specific forces good documentation of processes and tools and the work being done, and it forces you to keep updating that documentation. ---------This also eases the transfer of responsibilities to someone else. ------We discussed the necessity of giving a new employee context about the company, the purpose, and where the employee’s role fits. You can give them purposeful work and an understanding of that purpose as soon as they start! ---For more episodes on entrepreneurship, check out: ------ [Episode 235 – The Best Bad Option with Al Elliott (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-best-bad-option-with-al-elliott-1-2/) ------ [Episode 236 – Having the Vision, Charting the Path, Removing the Blockers with Al Elliott (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/having-the-vision-charting-the-path-removing-the-blockers-with-al-elliott-2-2/) ------ [Episode 96 – Building Your Own Business From Idea to Operations with Ashley Connell] (https://nerd-journey.com/building-your-own-business-from-idea-to-operations-with-ashley-connell/) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

24 Sep 2024

52 MINS

52:04

24 Sep 2024

#287

Enterprise Knowledge Management: A Consultative Approach to Solving the Right Problems with Abby Clo...

Are you solving the right problem? To get a specific outcome, the problem we need to solve is not always what we think it is. Abby Clobridge, the founder and lead consultant at FireOak Strategies, and her team perform detailed discovery with clients to ensure everyone is aligned to solve the right problem(s). This week in episode 293 we discuss Abby’s transition to becoming a consultant and her reasons for starting a business. We get educated on what knowledge management involves, some of the challenges related to achieving effective organizational knowledge management, and how we can each do our part to promote a culture of knowledge sharing. Listen closely for when Abby learned she didn’t want to spend her time just managing people. Original Recording Date: 08-23-2024 [Abby Clobridge] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aclobridge/) is the founder and lead consultant at [FireOak Strategies] (https://fireoakstrategies.com/) . If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Abby, check out [Episode 292] (https://nerd-journey.com/library-science-information-architecture-and-the-synthesis-of-details-with-abby-clobridge-1-2/) . Topics – Relatable Experience for Consulting and Starting a Business, Organizational Challenges in Knowledge Management, Uncovering the Context and the Problem, Centralized Governance vs. Crowdsourcing, Organizational Profiles and Evaluation Criteria, Knowledge Management Roles in the Enterprise ======================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:37 – Relatable Experience for Consulting and Starting a Business ------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---Was living in the in between space the relatable experience Abby needed to take to consulting? ------Abby thinks it was. She understood navigating this space, knew how to communicate with other stakeholders and co-workers, and enabled them to make informed decisions based on their knowledge of the organization. ------Abby also likes to solve problems. Once she helps solve a problem, she is ready to move on to something else. Abby says leaving a company every couple of years because the problems are solved is not very sustainable, but she gets to do this all the time as a consultant. ---------This perspective has influenced the work she does now at FireOak Strategies. ---------“I always tell our clients…and I truly mean this…when they don’t need us anymore, I think that’s a win. That means that you’ve graduated. We solved the problem that we set out to solve, and I feel really good about that.” – Abby Clobridge ---What made Abby want to start a business? ------“I did kind of have an unusual background. I was working in technology, but I was not coming at this from a programming perspective or an engineering perspective at all. I think my ability to do that translation piece and think about process and think about governance and think about compliance and intellectual property…it was unusual 15 years ago. And I was able to leverage that.” – Abby Clobridge, on deciding to start her own consulting business ------Abby says it was about the problems that could be solved and how that could help organizations. ------Abby began as a solo consultant in 2010 and founded FireOak Strategies with the intention to keep the company small. For 5 years it was just her. ------Being a solo consultant and business owner allows you to do only so many things at once like taking on certain projects of certain scopes / natures. ------Abby recounts a specific project as being the catalyst for initially adding addiitonal staff to the company. ---------“I don’t want to get to the point where I’m spending most of my time managing other people and I’m not doing the consulting work because I really enjoy the consulting work.” – Abby Clobridge, on the conscious decision to keep her company small to grow one project or experience at a time ------Going out on your own is challenging, and most people who do it likely do not know what they are getting themselves into. ---------“I was a good consultant, but I didn’t necessarily know anything about running a business. So you have to learn that really quickly and learn how to manage your own time and figure out what are your going to do and what are you going to outsource.” – Abby Clobridge ---------Outsourcing might mean deciding what to give to an accountant, who will call the insurance company or a lawyer, etc. You have to do this while trying to get new clients and complete existing client projects. ---------Reflecting back on the experience, Abby says her background did not prepare her for this initial experience as a business owner. ------Going into business for herself was something Abby wanted to try, and she had no idea if it would work out successfully. ---------She did not want to keep relocating every time she wanted a new job or quitting and looking for a new job after solving the problem(s). ---------The variety of getting to solve different problems was very appealing to Abby. ---------Abby decided to try consulting for a year or two and go from there. She tells us it was not well thought out any more than the above. ---------Abby had good connections from previous jobs but did not have a series of projects lined up once she started her business. For those looking to start a business, it’s a good idea to have projects lined up which can be started right away. ---------Abby considered failure as a possible outcome to going into business for herself, but she felt that even if she did fail, it would not be so devastating that she could not do something else. ---------Abby had been on a number of job interviews, but none seemed exciting. ---------“Yeah, I could go in, and I could do this job in my sleep. I’m positive I can because it’s a job I’ve done before. I’ve solved this problem already. This environment is really similar, but I don’t really want to do it. I’m not going to be happy doing it. And I think I had that realization of…I don’t really know exactly what I want to do next. I had been working in university libraries for probably about 10 years at that point, and I knew I didn’t want to be a library director…. And I have all this experience that’s kind of all over the place but all connected to information management, architecture, technology…so what do I do with this? I felt like there were a ton of different things that I could do but none of them were what was supposed to be on paper at the next step, and it was just time to figure out something totally different…. I really wanted to try to do something that I thought I could enjoy and wasn’t going to be bored doing….” – Abby Clobridge, on starting her own business ---------If Abby failed as a consultant, she would be able to go back and get one of the jobs similar to something she had previously done. But she also considered that it might work. ---------Abby wanted to be able to take advantage of technology as it changed in whatever she did. ---------She also did not want to spend 60% of a week managing people and feels figuring this out was an inflection point in her career. Not everyone comes to this realization as fast as they might like. ---------Abby had needed to manage in the job she had right before going into business for herself. In higher education, it is assumed you will have a 1-hour 1-1 meeting with your direct reports. This also does not include time spent on team meetings, skip-level meetings, performance reviews, and new hires. ---------My feeling was, ‘how do I get back to the work?’ And someone said, ‘well, this is the work.’ Oh…this isn’t the work I want to do. And that was a moment for me." – Abby Clobridge, on realizing she did not like management tasks ---------John says when people decide to become managers, they might not know that is the job. The higher someone gets in an organization, the more meetings which are involved. ---------It was a challenge in the library world to find any type of balance between being close to the work and doing people management work. More options may be available in the tech world, for example. ---------For those who enjoy focused blocks of time to write scripts, reports, or work on projects…stopping to take a meeting can be frustrating. Abby learned this about herself. ---------“How can I take what I like to do and create my own job instead of shopping around to try to find one that’s perfect?” – Abby Clobridge ---------This is great insight for those considering people management. ---------John recently faced this same struggle at an internal work conference recently. There was a session about new products scheduled at the same time as a session on being a better technical manager. ---------“I know that I want to go to the new product sessions, but that’s not actually my job any more…. My technical session is how to advance my skills on being a technical manager.” – John White, commenting on the difference between knowing this fact intellectually and feeling it emotionally ---------Abby says you can learn a lot about yourself when you have to give people who report to you the projects you would like to be working on. 14:46 – Organizational Challenges in Knowledge Management --------------------------------------------------------------- ---Is providing consulting in knowledge management about educating customers on current toolsets, the cultural and organizational changes that might be needed, more about process changes, or something else? ------Abby says it is different for every organization. Most of the time her company gets a call when an organization knows they could improve in an area but isn’t sure how they can improve. ---------One example is a team at a company saying they need a new intranet but the finance team not wanting them to purchase a tool to rebuild the current intranet. ---------Abby says a new platform doesn’t always solve the problem, but it does sometimes. ------In these scenarios it is important to diagnose the problems. ---------Is it a problem of poor linking, information not being present, inability to access necessary information, or an actual platform problem? ---------Maybe it’s an internal cultural issue like employees not wanting to share information with each other. ---------The customer may not know what is possible, it could be a metadata problem, or it could be a governance problem. ---------“Making sure that we’re solving the right problem is the really key thing. We spend a lot of time in that kind of diagnosis / discovery phase trying to make sure that we’re solving the right problems.” – Abby Clobridge ---------Abby shares a story from her early consulting career where a customer wanted a new taxonomy, but she knew early on it would not solve their problem. She likes to focus on solving the right problem to prevent wasting time or delivering something that won’t fix an issue. ---------Some customers are more willing to address their problems and actually make changes than others. Over the last 15 years, Abby and her team have worked with a lot of clients who have very different approaches to everything. It often comes down to organizational culture. ---------If the answer is not write a check and buy something, some customers are very exited at this, while others do not want to hear it. ---John says we often see trends in the few companies we have worked with over time. Some companies see the amount of information people share as an indicator of employee value to the organization. He mentions only working for 1 company which had this baked into their culture. How common is it to see organizations value knowledge sharing? ------This really varies across companies. An organization can say they mean it but not have the right incentives in place for their employees to execute well. ------Abby recommends understanding how people are measured against knowledge sharing, where performance evaluations and human resources fit into that, and where organizational culture fits. A picture of the holistic current state is important to see if an organization is encouraging the behavior it wants. If not, then the culture will need to change over time to align incentives with behavior. ------During times of economic change or organizational change (new CEO, etc.), knowledge sharing or a focus on good documentation may get lost or de-prioritized. Some may not perceive the efforts as being as valuable as they really could be for an organization. ------Some customers may want to address a specific pain point like lengthy employee onboarding. Abby shares a scenario where a company took 3 years to get from new hire to effective employee. Shortening the time to effectiveness of an employee translates to dollars and can be very powerful. ---------Doing this takes documentation and regular knowledge sharing within teams. ------Part of knowledge management is taking time to review the lessons learned, understanding that failures will happen, looking for ways to improve, and trying to avoid repeating the same mistakes. Abby says it is sometimes as simple as changing a mindset to more of a knowledge sharing mindset. ---John reached out to Abby about being a guest after reading her blog titled [8 Ways to Incorporate Knowledge Capture into Everyday Operations] (https://fireoakstrategies.com/ways-to-incorporate-knowledge-capture/) . ------One important point from the blog was incorporating knowledge management into performance reviews. John finds this kind of mind blowing in a good way and likes the idea of someone being more valuable to a company based on how much knowledge / information they have provided back to help others. ------If a company really values a specific behavior and wants to encourage it, aligning with performance reviews is one way to do that. ------When it comes to knowledge sharing, anyone within the organization can do it, both the individual contributor and the manager. It shows that everyone can contribute value. ---------Abby gives the example of a new hire writing a process document that didn’t exist and sharing with peers. That is extremely valuable, but we need the company and its leaders to not consider that effort a waste of time but rather to reward the behavior. ---------John highlights the value of people pointing out blind spots within an organization through not being able to find something and then helping to fill the gaps like in Abby’s example. ------Abby and her team are knowledge management platform agnostic. She is not a fan of standalone knowledge management systems. ---------There is a way to do knowledge management within the bounds of just about any platform (Microsoft, Google Workspace, Salesforce, etc.). ---------Many people are using Obsidian and Notion for personal knowledge management (a category of its own), and Abby supports that. These tools work well to get information into your second brain in a way that makes sense, but these tools do not scale for use across an enterprise. ---------“For work-related things, having knowledge captured and therefore searchable and findable and reusable within the places where people are going to do that…that’s where it needs to live, even if it’s ugly.” – Abby Clobridge ---------The goal of organizational knowledge management is for someone to find something and make sense out of it so it can help them quickly. ---------John says personal knowledge management tools have highlighted the value of the back link. Knowing what documents link to another document or refer to it is something that seems to be missing from the metadata in most data platforms. ---------Abby says existing platforms for knowledge management have room for improvement in various areas (backlinks, better metadata, etc.) from a capability and ease of use standpoint. AI will drive some of that improvement. ---------Abby was playing with [Microsoft Loop] (https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/microsoft-loop) recently. She appreciates the direction the product is going, but there is much more improvement needed. Perhaps in 5 years these platforms and tools will be much better and different than they are today. ---------John points out certain AI tools are great for summarizing data but may cause loss of the original source and document author in the process and could potentially take something out of context. 29:05 – Uncovering the Context and the Problem ---------------------------------------------------- ---Do people take knowledge management and what it means out of context? Does knowledge management apply to internal-facing content, external-facing content, or perhaps both? ------“I personally think knowledge management can mean whatever it needs to mean for any company.” – Abby Clobridge ------If the goal is for an organization to have a knowledge management strategy and an implementation strategy that goes along with it, goes back to the problems that need to be solved. Sometimes it is internal, sometimes it is external, and sometimes it is both. ---------One example Abby shares is a company that wants to focus on knowledge base articles available to customers and perhaps how to improve access to information or onboarding within the call center. ---------Another example is an organization that has not been incorporating lessons learned wanting to use these as part of continuous improvement to avoid future mistakes. ------Before beginning, the problem an organization is trying to solve should be specified as clearly as possible so everyone is on the same page. ---------The above often falls into creating new knowledge, using existing knowledge, properly managing and securing the knowledge, who the knowledge should be shared with, and even integrating with AI tools. Lengthy retention policies and never cleaning up old data can cause AI to provide bad data. ------Abby highlights the issues above as a segue between her prior focus on open access to that of internal / external knowledge management. ---------Think about who the audience is and what you are trying to accomplish. ---After doing a lot of discovery, how does it generally go when Abby and team have to tell a customer they are solving the wrong problem? ------Abby stresses the importance of doing discovery to ensure focus is placed on the right problems. ------All of the discovery comes before deciding to invest in a new platform, etc. ------“That’s the value of discovery. Are we sure we’re solving the right problems? Because there might be a very simple solution…. Organizational culture and governance have the potential to be really simple. At least, there’s not a direct price tag associated with them. But often it’s the most complicated to solve. Sometimes it’s just re-organizing things. Sometimes it’s tweaking what’s already there.” – Abby Clobridge ------Many times for knowledge base and intranet projects there is a lack of process / procedure for governance issues like: ---------How often should a piece of content be updated? ---------Who will own the update / maintenance for specific items? ---------Are subject matter experts looking over any updates? ---------Can a user easily see the last time a piece of content was updated to determine if it can be trusted? ---------How do we report something is out of date, and whose job is it to do something about it? 35:01 – Centralized Governance vs. Crowdsourcing ------------------------------------------------------ ---What about central governance vs. crowdsourcing information within an organization? ------This depends on the organization, the space in which they are working, and the level of precision needed. ---------Consider situations like FDA regulations, material or machine tolerance levels, etc. where precision is required. In these cases, crowdsourcing is not the way to go in Abby’s opinion. ---------Crowdsourcing is quite valuable in the development of organizational best practices. ------------Non-profits could potentially find value in crowdsourcing. ------------The answer does not have to be all central governance or all crowdsourcing for a specific organization. ---------In circumstances where precision is required and greater accountability for the information is required, central governance will be the better choice. ------------Abby gives the example of the need for precision in the nuclear energy space. ---------“The other issue with crowdsourcing is nobody is responsible because everybody is responsible. Therefore, whose responsibility is it that we get things updated and that we have it maintained and that…somebody has signed off in saying ‘this is still the way that we’re doing things?’” – Abby Clobridge ---------If crowdsourcing a really large organization, consider things like: ------------How do you balance this with other work so employees can spend time contributing? ------------How does your manager feel about it? ------------Is it consistent within the organization? ------------Are roles and responsibilities and expectations clear that crowdsourcing will be part of the job? This is where HR comes into play. 37:33 – Organizational Profiles and Evaluation Criteria ------------------------------------------------------------- ---How could we use inquiries about knowledge management to evaluate a company during the interview process? ------Abby says knowledge management might mean something different to different people, but we can ask about knowledge sharing (which most people understand). As what a new staff member should expect in terms of knowledge sharing. ---------If the interviewer cannot answer or really struggles to answer, it could be a red flag. ---------If the company values knowledge sharing, the interviewer should be able to describe programs and priorities around knowledge sharing or provide examples of how it is done at the company. ------Ask whether knowledge sharing is a performance review metric. ---------Abby says this is not the norm, but she feels it can really accelerate culture change like nothing else. ---The profile of organizations that Abby and her teams work with generally fall into 2 buckets: * Small to mid-size organizations (usually around 50 – 200 employees) or organizations who have grown quickly but have not scaled up their knowledge management processes and technology stack * Fortune 500 / Fortune 1000 companies that may want to focus on a specific division and its operations * Organizations like this usually have a technology stack and technical skills internally. They may not have the time or people to focus on improving organization and searchability of data, but the organization recognizes the importance of getting people the proper set of useful information as quickly as possible. * Other organizations of this size may be looking at externally facing elements like a public knowledge base or a call center. People inside these organizations may be too close to the content and unable to look at it from the perspective of someone external to the company. * In a lot of these cases, the content may exist, but the system used to access it doesn’t work well or isn’t easy to use. * An organization may know something could be better but may not be sure what to do about it or feel overwhelmed by the task. Abby says it takes reaching a certain tipping point before someone is willing to take action (even if that involves re-organizing what is in SharePoint, etc.). * Structured and organized internal knowledge allow you to use AI tools like [Glean] (https://www.glean.com/) and others to produce greater efficiencies. Many organizations know they are not there yet but are trying to be proactive. 44:26 – Knowledge Management Roles in the Enterprise ---------------------------------------------------------- ---Is there a need within organizations to have something like a librarian role? ------Abby says she has been seeing knowledge manager roles and even departments, but she advises her customers not to view people in these roles as a dumping ground for stuff. ------In an operations division, for example, the knowledge management team would not be responsible for updating individual pages in the knowledge base. They would be responsible for things like building automations based on content update frequency, making sure the right people are notified to provide content updates, etc. Abby refers to the role of someone in knowledge management as “serving as that catalyst to make sure that things are happening.” ------There must also be accountability for people to actually update content pages. It’s a governance issue and can be where things fall apart. ---In a company that may not holistically value knowledge management / knowledge sharing, what can the front line leader do to create a culture of knowledge sharing for their team? ------The front line leader can look at things like turnover or increase in staff. What could the team be doing to help onboard new members quickly? ------“You’re probably hiring people who are coming in with a set of skills, so we’re not going to teach somebody Python scripting if that’s what’s needed for this job. We’re going to assume that they can either figure it out or they have that skill already. But we want it documented in this certain way or we want it done in this certain way, and here’s our company or our department’s special way of doing things. And that’s the part to focus on.” – Abby Clobridge, on a culture of knowledge sharing ------Consider writing a manual for the department that the group collectively puts together so it doesn’t fall on any single individual. ------Listen to Abby describe a non-profit former client in which each department had no standard operating procedures that were documented. ---------There was a specific department who wrote up their own operation procedures even though the organization had not mandated that any department do it. ---------The department which had done the documentation had someone leave and was able to quantify the time and effort saved in getting a new member up to speed. Sharing quantifiable success stories with other departments can influence their decision to take a grass roots approach rather than a top-down approach. ------Sometimes it just takes a few people to start something inside an organization. ------Even the new hire who sees a gap and puts together something to share with others (a process, a systematic approach, etc.) can contribute to organizational knowledge management. ---To follow up on this discussion, you can [contact Abby on LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aclobridge/) . Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Abby referred to the things she enjoyed doing as “the work” – solving problems, solving the right problems for her customers. She did not want to get too far from that work. Being a consultant allows her to continue to do the work she enjoys even as her business has grown. ------For business owners listening, hopefully you can structure your job to allow focus on the work you love for at least some of your day / week. ------If you are a manager or individual contributor, can you find ways to do more of the things you enjoy in your work? ---------Could you do more of a certain type of projects, get deeper in a specific technology, or collaborate with a certain group of people more often? ---------If not, perhaps you can look for job descriptions with the first few requirements containing areas of work where you have expertise and that you enjoy. ---------Think about these things as you work through your [Must Have List] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) shared with us by Kat and Liz from Real Job Talk a few episodes ago. ---Abby’s story reminded Nick of a couple of previous guests: ------Chris Williams took a role as a consultant to avoid boredom, which sounds a lot like Abby’s reasons for becoming a consultant. ---------Check out [Episode 229 – A Depth and a Breadth with Chris Williams (1/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/a-depth-and-a-breadth-with-chris-williams-1-3/) to hear the full story. ------David Klee wants to help his customers solve a specific problem once so that next time they can bring him in to fix a different problem since he already taught them how to fix the first problem. ---------Check out [Episode 119 – Tinkering into Specialty with David Klee (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/tinkering-into-specialty-with-david-klee-1-2/) to hear the full story as well as [Episode 120 – A Time to Build with David Klee (2/2)(https://nerd-journey.com/a-time-to-build-with-david-klee-2-2/). ---------This is also further surfacing of this theme of consultants as educators. ---Though we did not call it knowledge sharing or knowledge management at the time, Chris Wahl spoke about people inside his company blogging to build connections with co-workers. ------Check out [Episode 149 – Find Your Gratitude, Find Your Joy with Chris Wahl (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/find-your-gratitude-find-your-joy-with-chris-wahl-2-2/) near the end to read Chris’ blog article on this topic. ------If people are sharing lessons learned inside their company in blog form, it would not only build connections but make people better communicators. This supports a culture of knowledge sharing and could lend itself to keeping content more up to date. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

17 Sep 2024

56 MINS

56:35

17 Sep 2024

#286

Library Science: Information Architecture and the Synthesis of Details with Abby Clobridge (1/2)

What do you think the following jobs have in common? The answer will give you a hint about our guest this week! ---Doing statistical work for a market research firm ---Conducting research for a popular news network ---Architecting information flow and query optimization for websites ---Leading digitization initiatives for a university ---Becoming a consultant ---Owning a business Abby Clobridge, our guest in episode 292, held all of the above jobs as a result of pursuing a degree in library science. Listen closely for the parallels between learning how to architect information flow / retrieval for websites and learning how to architect communication flow so that people needing information get just enough at the right time and with the appropriate level of detail. This includes learning how to exercise brevity in communication while being assertive. You’ll also hear how Abby worked on natural language processing and sentiment analysis years before we had mature tools to do it. Original Recording Date: 08-23-2024 Topics – Falling into Library Science, The Technical Nature of Library Science, The Architect of Information, Just Enough Information, Exercising Assertive Brevity, Leading Digital Initiatives and Walled Gardens =================================================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:49 – Falling into Library Science ----------------------------------------- --- [Abby Clobridge] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/aclobridge/) is the founder and lead consultant at [FireOak Strategies] (https://fireoakstrategies.com/) . ------FireOak Strategies is a boutique consulting firm specializing in information management, knowledge management, and everything related to how information, data, and knowledge are managed, secured, and shared. ---In college, Abby studied history at Tufts University and wasn’t quite sure what she might do after graduation. ------Tufts had an experimental college that allowed undergraduate students to teach a class to first year students, but it required a faculty mentor / sponsor. Abby was teaching a class, and her mentor was the head of information technology and human resources at the undergraduate library. ------Abby kept in touch with this mentor as she got closer to graduating, and she had also done internships focused on research for producing a documentary and other things adjacent to history. ------Abby’s mentor kept suggesting she attend grad school and look at library science as an option. ------The library science program aligned with Abby’s interests(using technology, looking at information, doing research) and combined them with the use of analytical skills. ---John jokes that library science is the original information technology and highlights the pattern we are seeing that there is no traditional background to get into technology fields. 5:43 – The Technical Nature of Library Science ---------------------------------------------------- ---People might not know how technical library can be. ---For reference, Abby was studying as an undergraduate in the mid 1990s and was getting into library science in the late 1990s. During this time, doing research was not doing a Google search on a computer or phone. It was very different than today. This was before all the tools we can now use for free. ------Most of Abby’s initial work had to do with online searches and paid databases like [LexisNexis] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LexisNexis) , Avid, WestLaw, Dialogue, etc. ------Doing a search with one of the above tools wasn’t just typing in a search term / phrase like it is today. People needed to learn query languages that were specific to each database provider. When crafting a query, it was important to refine your query to get all of the necessary information needed because of the cost of doing searches using these tools. ------“It’s not that different from writing a script to do a thing using Python. It’s the same general conceptual work but in a very different way. So I think having those skills and spending time in that space early on in my career was really helpful.” – Abby Clobridge, on doing paid database searches before the time of Google search ------While in grad school, Abby worked for a market research firm doing data and statistical analysis using [SPSS] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS) , which is similar to doing programming and scripting (same kinds of skills). ---Were the computer skills Abby needed for the jobs she held while in grad school taught to her as part of the program or something she had to pick up on her own? ------Abby says it was a combination of both and cites learning basic HTML as part of the program. ---What made Abby decide to give library science a try after her mentor suggested it? ------Abby’s mother was a librarian, and as a result she was familiar with what a graduate degree in the space might look like. From Abby’s perspective, many who pursue library science end up having unusual career paths. ------She talked to other people and did research on other options before saying yes to library science. ------“I knew that pretty much anything I was going to do was going to have some aspect of technology and information science and information organization connected to it, so it seemed like a good, very open ended option that wasn’t necessarily going to mean I was going to end up working at a library.” – Abby Clobridge, on choosing library science ------Nick says if someone recommends we look at a particular field of study or type of job we should give it thoughtful consideration because it means the person sees something in us we might not have seen in ourselves. John calls it a package of aptitude and skills. Abby would add interests as well to this. ---------Abby can think of 2 different internships she was part of while studying history that contributed to her decision to pursue library science. ---------“Experiences led me to spending a lot of time in libraries and a lot of time looking for a needle in a haystack, and the satisfaction that I got when finding it is something that I really enjoy. So I think that’s something that you either really like doing or you don’t, and there’s not much of a middle ground maybe. It kind of made sense then when somebody said, ‘these things that you like doing and that you’re good at, there is a career here. You’re just not sure exactly what it would look like, and it doesn’t have to be the person behind the circulation desk who is checking out books or helping somebody teach a class on how to do research. There’s more administrative work involved. There’s technical work involved.’ There’s a whole bunch of other options here that I hadn’t necessarily thought about.” – Abby Clobridge ---What did Abby see as potential careers once she went through the program? ------Abby thinks doing the statistical work as part of the job she held while in the program was the most surprising. She really enjoyed it and the analysis of large amounts of data in different ways. ---------While an undergraduate Abby was analyzing words and patterns to specifically answer a question. ---------While she was in grad school the statistical work at the market research firm was more about analyzing numbers and being able to tell a story around the data. ------------There was a lot of data representing customer satisfaction with a specific company or product, and Abby was involved in writing reports that went along with this data. ------------“How does the data answer the questions that you’re trying to answer? And it’s not just ‘let’s put together a table’ but really craft an entire story around it. And I thought that was really interesting. And it kind of all made sense and started to fit together in a weird sort of way with information and data and the knowledge that you can glean from these things….” – Abby Clobridge ------------Abby understood the work she did was an example of how companies could use this type of data. It answered the question of why companies should do market research or some type of data-driven analysis. ---------John says it sounds like Abby was doing natural language processing (an early precursor to it as we know it today). ------------Abby says as more tools have developed in these areas over the last 20-25 years it has allowed us to take advantage of these new tools quickly and rethink how we do things for improved efficiency. ------------John points out Abby was (in the 1990s) basically working on the number 1 use case for natural language processing today – sentiment analysis. ------------But Abby tells us she was not doing it in a cutting edge way. Today’s tools could scrape sentiment from social media. At this time at the market research firm people were making phone calls and going to malls to get people to take surveys (with hand written responses). 15:36 – The Architect of Information ------------------------------------------ ---Did the statistical work land Abby her first job after graduate school? ------No. After grad school, Abby worked for a company selling engineering standards ( [ASTM] (https://www.astm.org/) standards for building things). Many of the standards were paper books at that time and not digital copies. ------Abby was in charge of creating the information architecture and taxonomy for the company’s website so people could locate a standard and place and order for it (i.e. early ecommerce). ------At that time, Abby was focused on organizing the information on the website, its navigation, and making searches on the site efficient. ------Nick thought maybe Abby was architecting databases and the flows of information in and out of the databases and how to visualize the data on the company website. ---------Abby says in some ways yes, but she was not a database administrator or programmer. ---------“Being the go between, the translator between, ok, this is what people are searching for. We have data that is telling us that. How do we construct the database? And then kind of bridging the gap between the two. And that is still a skill that is incredibly useful today, that translation piece.” – Abby Clobridge ---------This is the metadata we store in databases about the data, or what we might call information taxonomy. ---------Abby says this is completely relevant today, but it goes well beyond websites due to the volume of data that exists. ---------You might see this metadata / taxonomy applied across many SharePoint sites, for example, to highlight the most important data or data that needs to be kept vs. that which needs to be archived. We would need to think about where version control comes in and what data is feed to AI tools to produce good results. ---------Maybe we’re just solving the same problem today but using different tools that are making things easier while at the same time having so much more data to examine. ---------Storage is cheaper these days, and many of us just hold on to digital data indefinitely. Abby highlights the need to ensure AI tools are only looking at good data and not junk data. We have to figure out how to help those tools tell the difference so that we can get meaningful answers to our search queries quickly. ---Did information architecture experience make Abby a better researcher? ------She tells us the two are very closely connected almost in a chicken and egg type relationship. ------Abby thinks the information architecture work may have made her better at coming up with alternative ways to search for the data she needed (i.e. thinking from different angles or perspectives). 20:09 – Just Enough Information ------------------------------------- ---Abby worked at the CNN News Library in the late 1990s / early 2000s. She would often need to find a needle in a haystack from the video library, for example. The job was news research. It could be hard to imagine if you didn’t live through it. ------New employees like Abby would get weekend shifts on Saturdays or Sundays. Hers was Saturday mornings. There was a running joke that things always happened on Saturday mornings when the newest person was around. It felt very much like that was the case to Abby. ------Abby recounts the story of one of the first Saturdays she was by herself. It happened to be when John F. Kennedy, Junior’s plane went missing. She received a call from a news anchor during the commercial break who needed information about Kennedy by the time the commercial was over. She had to get correct information very quickly at a time when Wikipedia did not exist. ------Fielding requests for information and understanding that many of them were very urgent was part of the job. ------“I learned really quickly that people were not looking for an exhaustive set of research about everything. They were in the car on the way to interview somebody. They need a couple of paragraphs that they can digest quickly or a couple of really great articles that summarize what they need in a short sort of way because you’re not going to have time to sift through 100 pages. Learning how to do that synthesis and pick the best articles and decide what they need to know and what you trust and what you don’t trust really quickly became really important.” – Abby Clobridge, on working as a researcher for CNN ------Nick thinks this is similar to working the help desk fielding severity 1 calls. On the spot you have to do troubleshooting and get the right solution to the problem as quickly as possible. ------“Within the information space, how do you get people what they need as easily as possible so it’s the right level of details so that they can do whatever it is that they need to do with it? That is still something that as the amount of information, the quantities just keep increasing, in some ways it becomes harder and harder, not easier to do.” – Abby Clobridge ------Nick says this is the same problem people have communication with their manager or a senior level leader. We often give them (our leaders) way too much information without summarizing it or putting it into the form that is needed. ---------Abby says this is a frequent topic among team members at FireOak Strategies. ---------Anyone at a relatively high level is going to read the e-mails they receive from their phone. If what you need to say isn’t in the top of the message body, it might be too much information that someone else won’t read. ---------Abby suggests if we need to give background info or more context, put a summary at the top of your e-mail with further details / context below it. ---------This is an even bigger problem now with many people reading messages on a smart watch (less words people see upon first glance and more potential for something to get lost). Keep the message simple and brief. ---------Abby suggests when we need an answer, ask your questions in a way that gets you a yes, a no, or a “let’s discuss it later.” Structure your questions to enable a quick answer from others. ------Do most people who become people managers understand they will need to train their teams to do the above? ---------Abby thinks most people don’t necessarily know they will eventually become a people manager. People also might not have training on how to become a manager. New managers might have to learn by doing or learn from the examples of good managers they’ve had over time. ------Did Abby practice the summarization technique we discussed (or the idea of just enough information) in communicating with her management? ---------CNN was a little bit different. If a news anchor, a producer, or a reporter called the turnaround was so fast that there wasn’t time to wait for or interject approval from a manager. ---------"You had to learn how to do it yourself really quickly. And if you couldn’t you weren’t going to last very long because there just isn’t time to go get somebody else… The feedback was more direct because of the nature of the work that I was doing and the people who I was working with. They would call back – ‘no, I don’t want 20 pages. I’m literally in the car, and I’m going to be there in 10 minutes. I need something shorter.’ " – Abby Clobridge ---------The immediate nature of the feedback Abby got in the role at CNN helped her refine her communication skills and to determine the level of depth needed based on the request. ---------Though Abby runs her company, she still works with clients and considers each of them managers she reports to at the end of the day. Making it as easy as possible to get an answer is more of a consulting skill than working for a specific manager. 28:33 – Exercising Assertive Brevity ------------------------------------------ ---Were the information summary and synthesis skills something Abby began to implement intentionally in her work, or did they naturally become part of her communication workflow? ------Abby thinks this may be a byproduct of her personality and situations she has been in over the years. ------She has been in a number of situations where it was important to be assertive but brief. ------“Learning how to condense your thoughts and articulate what’s most important I think is a really important skill.” – Abby Clobridge ------In the news world 20 years ago, Abby was often one of the youngest people in the room. Listen to her describe the atmosphere in the daily news meetings and the importance of being assertive. ------“So you couldn’t talk for an extended period of time, and you needed to learn how to jump in, say something, and then let other people react to it or move on. I think I was just watching that and absorbing that around me…. You had to be assertive and you had to say something and you had to get your point across quickly.” – Abby Clobridge, describing the need to speak up but be brief while working in the news industry ------It was similar to the above during school when she attended classes and worked in small groups (the need to speak up). ------Abby has been the only woman in various situations over the course of her career but says the gender imbalance is not as bad as it once was. ------Being assertive means not waiting to be asked about your opinion, and if you have something to contribute to a conversation, take the initiative to speak your mind and share our opinion / thoughts. ------“Frequently the loudest voice in the room is what wins out, so learning how to inject your point of view quickly…I think that’s important.” – Abby Clobridge ------John uses the analogy of having someone in the room who is in charge of cooking the meal. You are in charge of making the ingredients you have available to that person. ---------“It’s their choice whether they incorporate your ingredients or not, but if you withhold your ingredients, then you’re not serving the greater good.” – John White ---------If we further the analogy, the chef doesn’t know certain ingredients are out there unless you tell them. ------What’s Abby’s advice for women to be more assertive despite the gender imbalances? ---------Abby says you need to get comfortable with it. ---------The tech industry has changed in the last few years. Abby cites fewer times during a given week or month when she is the only woman in a conversation, but there are still times when it happens. ---------Abby feels it is important to develop a thick skin. You can learn how to be that person on the call with a different background from others. ---------“Have confidence in yourself, and be comfortable that what you’re bringing to the conversation is valuable. And if you have something to add, you should add it.” – Abby Clobridge, advice for other women to be more assertive ------John says this is also a leadership lesson for the chef in the room. ---------Make sure to get opinions from everyone who can offer them on a topic. Just because certain people are more likely to speak up in conversations, it does not mean they don’t have valuable opinions to add. ---------It’s good to have people with different perspectives, opinions, and ideas. ---------“It’s important to ask. As a leader, I completely agree with that. You have to be asking for other people’s opinions and not just encouraging the loudest voice in the room to speak. And you Need to make sure that people are invited to the conversation…. It’s a skill, and it takes time. And it takes getting comfortable in your own skin sometimes to do.” – Abby Clobridge, on advice for leaders ---------The above extends beyond an organization’s boundaries. There are conferences that take place without diversity of panelists. We’re missing opportunities. ---------It’s been statistically proven how important diversity of thought, background, and opinion can help an organization thrive. John says a lack of diversity could result in poor strategy because everyone has the same blind spots. ---------Abby suggests asking as a leader how things could be done differently or what we might be missing when trying to make a decision. Different opinions about optimization of processes and procedures is extremely valuable. 36:21 – Leading Digital Initiatives and Walled Gardens ------------------------------------------------------------ ---Around the time Abby was getting married, she decided to look for a different job. She wanted to get into academia and took a role at Bucknell University. ------“All of the jobs I had most of my career really were pretty far outside of traditional library work.” – Abby Clobridge ------Abby was charged with building a new digital initiatives program from scratch. ---------As an example she worked with the art department (which had a museum on campus) to determine the best way to create a digital version of artwork. ---------Aby found herself once again between the people who were developing the database to store information, the people who wanted to present the art collection to the public, and other stakeholders who wanted to use the collection for teaching purposes. ---------Abby had to think through the metadata needed for all of these requests and create an interoperable metadata schema. The schema would need to be used internally but also with other systems externally. ---------Abby worked on projects in this space for 5-7 years and covered many areas – art, history, and even civil engineering. She loved the variety in the kinds of work she was doing. ------Did being in the middle mean Abby owned the deliverables, or was it more co-owned with stakeholders and technology personnel? ---------The team selected a platform for many of the collections. The art collection had some internally built enhancements on top of the platform. ---------“I didn’t feel responsible for the end product that was being built, but I felt responsible for making sure that the outcome was something that was going to be useful, usable, met everybody’s needs, met the requirements we had articulated, met the requirements we hadn’t quite thought of, and that there was something at the end of the day that was completely useful in a meaningful kind of way for everybody and could be sustainable and scalable. That was my responsibility…figuring out what was that path to get there and making sure that there was going to be something in place that 5 years later would still be functional.” – Abby Clobridge ---John says Abby started her career at a time when things were all walled gardens. In the academia position she was trying to share the information with the world (breaking down the walled garden). ------Initially, Abby and team had to figure out sharing what needed to be shared inside the university. Then they looked at the value of sharing it more broadly, and there was not value in sharing everything more broadly. ------Part of this was getting everyone comfortable with sharing this data. Not everyone was. ------They had to think about the licensing and copyright implications of buying slide libraries compared to buying the same images (or renting them). This came into play in discussions on sharing things internally compared to also sharing externally. ------They considered making searches interoperable with collections from other universities. ------Abby spent a lot of time walking the line between open access and closed access. ------Parts of the art gallery collection were designed to be publicly accessible, but there was metadata that did not need to be accessible to the public like insurance values, appraisal information, etc. ------Open access and making the results of research publicly accessible (free to access / read / download) was new in the early 2000s. This was one of the big projects Abby worked on when she became a consultant. ---------Open access is something Abby is very interested in and remains passionate about. It’s not as much of a concentrated focus for her right now in her work, but it is interesting to see how much has changed in the last 10-20 years. ---It feels like Abby took the experience as an information architect and layered on things like compliance, data governance and privacy, and even cybersecurity. Did she feel like this was a specialization? ------Abby does not think she has a specialization, feeling she knows a little bit about a lot of things that go together. ------The communication piece is a critical part of this. Abby gives the example of being in the same room with lawyers concerned about copyright, those who built a product’s functionality, risk management…and even executives (who need to understand benefits and risk involved). ------“It’s being able to serve as the middle person in a conversation…it’s all really closely connected, but you have to be thinking about that when you’re designing something and you’re trying to disseminate information and data and knowledge and how is this going to be used…and trying to strike a balance…. It can be an interesting space because it’s not the same for two organizations….” – Abby Clobridge ------Abby gives the examples of 3 different organizations her company has worked with, each looking at things from a different viewpoint. ---------“What is it that we’re trying to protect, and what is it that we’re trying to disseminate? And how are people going to use what we’re sharing and what we’re producing, and how do we figure out what’s the right way to do this for that organization? And yeah, risk absolutely comes up, and governance comes up. And trying to manage all of this is really interesting.” – Abby Clobridge Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---The idea of telling stories with data sounds a lot like what a security engineer has to do. It reminded Nick of [Episode 240 – Nurturing Cybersecurity Talent Development with Kenneth Ellington (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/nurturing-cybersecurity-talent-development-with-kenneth-ellington-2-2/) with and the mention of the capstone presentation students had to complete as part of a cybersecurity training program. ---Maybe you’ve heard about the concept of just in time, just enough access (or JITJEA). Abby had to deliver just in time, just enough information to people calling her at the news station. ---Brevity in communication is very important when communicating with leaders. Sean Tolram learned that a few meaningful sentences could make more of an impact than hundreds of pages of reports. Check out these episodes for more details on that: ------ [Episode 265 – Interview and Collaborate: Fostering Human Connection with Sean Tolram (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/interview-and-collaborate-fostering-human-connection-with-sean-tolram-1-2/) – start near the end of the episode in the section on communicating results ------ [Episode 266 – Stress Response: The Business Impact of Mindfulness with Sean Tolram (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/stress-response-the-business-impact-of-mindfulness-with-sean-tolram-2-2/) ---Evan Oldford spoke about sending a brief daily report to his management to help them understand what was happening but that was short enough to read in the Starbucks coffee line. ------Check out [Episode 172 – Ease the Mind through Daily Reporting with Evan Oldford (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/ease-the-mind-through-daily-reporting-with-evan-oldford-1-2/) Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... 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10 Sep 2024

49 MINS

49:38

10 Sep 2024

#285

Layoffs and Job Market Impacts: Experience with RIFs Preferred with Real Job Talk (2/2)

For job seekers out there, are you getting ghosted by potential employers even after asking for a status update? Is it possible that the impact of tech industry layoffs on the current job market might explain some of this, or are we observing a lack of leadership and communication? This week in episode 291, we continue a focused discussion on layoffs with Liz Bronson and Kat Nelson Troyer from [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) . Liz and Kat will share perspectives on the current job market, thoughts on the connection between employee experience and job candidate experience, how we can all be better stewards of the collective community, and advice for leaders during challenging times like reductions in force (RIFs) / layoffs. Check out the show notes for a number of resources to help you navigate. And if you missed part 1 of our discussion with Liz and Kat, check out [Episode 290] (https://nerd-journey.com/reduction-in-force-navigating-layoff-trends-in-tech-with-real-job-talk-1-2/) . Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024 Topics – Current State of the Job Market, Employee Experience and Responsiveness, Advice for Executive Leaders, Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs, Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources ========================================================================================================================================================================================================= 2:59 – Current State of the Job Market -------------------------------------------- ---Do we think the job market will calm itself even if the rightsizing exercises continue? ------Liz is consistently speaking with a lot of job seekers, recruiters, and many others. ------There are many disgruntled employees and a lot of people looking for jobs. ------Jobs are being opened across different platforms and getting thousands of applicants. Many of the applicants are not qualified. ------If there were 3000 applicants for a job, no one has time to go through them. There is a lot of ghosting happening right now. ---------Liz spoke to someone who had done 3 rounds of interviews. One of the rounds was in-person, 7 hours, and they never heard back. ---------This kind of thing is not an anomaly and seems to be happening all over the place. ------In Liz’s opinion in times of recession / leading up to them you start to see recruiters get cut because hiring has stopped. ---------When many recruiters are out of work, it floods the market. If companies are hiring, the teams doing it are very lean and short staffed. ---------Different tools popped up that post jobs in many different places, and openings are circulated amongst networking groups as well. ---------With thousands of applicants, recruiters end up overworked and unable to get back to people. ---------There might be AI tools in use, but they may not be tuned / refined to actually be effective. ---------In recruiting programs that are well run, Liz says a recruiter would not have more than about 10 jobs on their plate. Liz is hearing about recruiters who have 50 jobs on their plate, which they cannot do well. Recruiters are doing the best they can right now. ---------Hiring managers are also overwhelmed and may be unable to get back to candidates, especially those who might only get one new job requisition for an already short-staffed team. They might not have time to hire effectively. ---------“We’re just in this weird spot…. The process has just gotten out of control, and job seekers are feeling it and getting more frustrated. Our tools and our people and our processes haven’t kept up with the times.” – Liz Bronson, on the job market and hiring processes ---------There were a lot of openings for recruiters at the end of 2023, which is usually a good sign that the economy is coming back. Any recruiter who was hired near the end of 2023 is still ramping up as of this recording. ------Right now the best way to get a job is through a referral. ------Liz shares a story about someone who contacted a hiring manager who said there were 3000 applicants for an open position and 600 direct messages to the hiring manager on LinkedIn about the role. ---------The hiring manager shared there was no way to get back to everyone. ---------“Think about that. When I’m sitting there…e-mailing CEOs or Chief People Officers…they’re probably getting 400, 500 e-mails just like mine. So I have to figure out another way. That’s just a little glimpse into what is going on, at least for people I’ve been talking to. Most applications you don’t even get a rejection these days.” – Liz Bronson, on the current job market ---All of this is linked to company reputation. John doesn’t feel like we as a society hold organizations accountable enough for the applicant experience. ------Many times applicant experience is something we are expected to judge differently than employee experience instead of looking at applicant experience as the beginning of employee experience. ------Not getting back to people and employees being overworked is an indicator of what life at an organization could be like for a potential employee. ------“In my view…employee experience starts at the application, and it ends when you’re in the alumni network. And you have to think it through. And when times are good and money’s flowing, you see investment in the employee experience. When it’s hard to get good people, all of a sudden you see an investment in the application, in the recruiting process. When it’s not as hard, all that goes away because you’re trying to do more with less and all the things.” – Liz Bronson ------We might see some posts on Glassdoor or Reddit about poor candidate experience. ------A recruiter could have anywhere between 50 and 100 candidates on their plate at a time, and we do have to be mindful of this. But when recruiters stop responding after a candidate has followed up multiple times, Liz says this is when it starts to impact employee experience. ---------Even if the answer is no (i.e. the candidate will not move forward), it is better than no response. ---------Liz hears stories from people daily about getting no response / being completely ignored as a job candidate. ------The process becomes really challenging for candidates when the communication we would expect to be there isn’t there, especially if you’ve had an in-person interview and get no response. ---------Kat says as much as possible try not to take this personally because it is likely you are not the only one getting ghosted. 10:10 – Employee Experience and Responsiveness ---------------------------------------------------- ---John says the applicant experience is the beginning of employee experience. It’s not necessarily a front-line manager problem but a global leadership issue for companies that can present reputational risk if not handled properly. What are some of those lessons leaders need to learn in this area? ------Kat says people really are bogged down with work right now and might have more on their plate than they can handle. But, there are also people who tend to ghost others regardless of how busy they are. ------One of Kat’s values is good communication. Knowing someone tends to ghost people would likely make her not want to pursue an opportunity with that person. ------“Uncomfortable conversations are never fun, but I sure respect people who are willing to have them…as opposed to just ghosting.” – Kat Nelson Troyer ------John mentions we have Glassdoor but that it lacks granularity down to the recruiter or hiring manager level (i.e. this person never responded after polite follow-ups). ------Just as we need worry time on our calendar, Liz says we need to schedule time to be good community citizens and communicate. Even for the overburdened hiring manager or recruiter, it could be as simple as copying and pasting the same update to candidates. ------All of us will be job seekers at some point. Liz suggests we can make the world a better place by being responsive to others in our professional network who ask for help in their job search or might have applied at the company where we work. It takes very little time to do this for others. ------“And then if we all do that for each other and we all put an hour a week on our calendar to be a good community member, that will feel a lot better I think than ignoring folks that want some help. And it will give us the good energy when we need it next time. At least that’s the hope.” – Liz Bronson 13:32 – Advice for Executive Leaders ------------------------------------------ ---How can the executive leader who had to make the decision to make cuts instill hope for the new company after a rightsizing exercise? How can they make cuts without demoralizing staff? ------Kat says hopefully the leader in question has a god strategy and has done as deep a cut as is necessary. It’s very hard on teams to see multiple instances of layoffs over short periods of time. ------Kat advises leaders to do a deep cut so they only have to manage the process once. ------“It’s all about communication – expressing gratitude for the team members that left, and also this is the new team and you’re here for a reason…and acknowledging that it’s going to be different…. I think that good leaders are good communicators and are able to communicate what they need to communicate with empathy. Those are the ones that I see people be loyal with.” – Kat Nelson Troyer ------Liz suggests planning for a mourning period and says, “part of planning a RIF is planning the repair.” ---------Leaders should plan their communications and should have an action plan for moving forward. This includes highlighting priority areas, being transparent, and not shying away from difficult conversations. ---------“It will be an elephant in the room unless you show the elephant the door. And the door is the path moving forward.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for executive leaders after a layoff ------Kat emphasizes transparency as well, and unless there is some kind of liability, leaders should share the reasoning behind their strategy. ---------When we understand the reasoning behind a strategy it is easier to support it. ---------When we feel like someone is being transparent with us, it builds trust. ---------“It’s hard for leaders in this kind of situation…. It’s never fun to have to navigate reduction in forces.” – Kat Nelson Troyer 17:05 – Encouragement for Leaders Executing Layoffs --------------------------------------------------------- ---For the leaders who have had to execute layoffs once or more than once, what advice do we have for them to continue on being a leader? ------Leaders have to take care of themselves because at the end of the day, we’re all people. These are hard situations. ------“As a leader the day of a RIF, it’s hard. And you can’t be in your feelings because you’ve got to be there for your team and for others. But you also go home, and you have to take care of yourself. Because you have to show up as that transparent, open, honest, focused person who is positive and not Pollyanna positive…. Own it. It’s hard, but you have to be that person that we’re talking about. And then you have to make sure you’re taking care of yourself so you’re not burning yourself out so you can be strong enough to do the work.” – Liz Bronson, on advice for leaders ------John says it’s difficult to have empathy for top level leaders in an organization. It might feel like they are not being held accountable. For those of us who operate at the individual contributor level or close to the bottom of an organization, our empathy is probably more for the individuals who have to carry out the execution of actions like layoffs (i.e. front-line managers, HR personnel, etc.). ------“Each of us can think of that great leader that handled it well…. There are ways to do it, and we can all thing of leaders who have led well through hard times and change. And we can also think of the ones who closed their office door and hid.” – Liz Bronson, on leadership through difficult times ------Liz mentions [a 2022 letter written by the CEO of Stripe] (https://stripe.com/newsroom/news/ceo-patrick-collisons-email-to-stripe-employees) as an example of what good leadership in these situations looks like. ---------Stripe treated their people well despite the difficult situation, and Liz mentioned there were many people who were full of gratitude for how they were treated. ------Kat suggests if you are a leader who has to deal with something like this, it would be a great time to reach out to your personal board of advisors. Think through the strategy before executing. ------John says when you’re involved in a RIF, you suddenly realize all the steps you haven’t taken to build your network, to keep in touch with people, etc. ---------The people leader who has to execute a reduction in force or RIF may come to the realization that they don’t have a board of advisors setup to help them navigate this situation and the path forward in the most humane way possible. ---------Liz says leaders who need help and take on the personal responsibility of doing this right can reach out to HR personnel for guidance, get a coach like Kat, or invest time in learning from anyone around them who can help. ---------“Leaders have to take ownership at their level, and that makes sense. And part of that is owning the fact that maybe you weren’t ready to do this and don’t know exactly how to handle it. It’s not every first or second line manager that’s had to manage through a RIF.” – John White ---------Liz says managers should reach out to HR as soon as they find out they will be involved in layoffs / RIFs. HR teams should be able to provide coaching. Make sure you have the training you need. 22:39 – Closing Thoughts and Real Job Talk Resources ---------------------------------------------------------- ---“If a RIF happens to you, it may feel like the end of the world at that moment, but you are going to get through it. And so, take time to process your emotions, and then get started on figuring out what your next step is going to be.” – Kat Nelson Troyer ------Be sure to check out the [Resources Page] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) of the Real Job Talk website. ------The Must Have List is one of the top items listed on this page, and it’s a great process to go through to help us get some clarity. ------Kat says the Must Have List is really the 2nd step in the envisioning process. She asks her clients to think big and to write their ideal job description (part of something called the ideal job process). The output from this is used to build the Must Have List. ------There are several episodes about navigating interviews, job offers, and other challenging situations at work on the [Real Job Talk website] (https://realjobtalk.com/) . ------Be sure to subscribe to Real Job Talk! ---Liz has learned we can only control ourselves. ------“The best hedge against a RIF is doing your best. After that, it’s not in your hands…. Think about and focus on the things you can control…. You cannot control your company’s future single handedly. So try not to sit there and worry and focus on moving yourself, your group, your team forward. That’s the best thing you can do.” – Liz Bronson ------Things you can control: ---------Have a plan. ---------Have a resume that is up to date. ---------Ask people for recommendations on LinkedIn. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- --- If you want to become a people leader someday, be mindful of the fact that you may have to execute a layoff as part of your role. --- More resources from [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) : ------ [Surviving a Layoff] (https://realjobtalk.com/10-surviving-a-layoff) ------ [Starting Your New Job Search] (https://realjobtalk.com/2) ------ [Resources page with Must Have List template] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) ------ [Subscribe to Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/subscribe) --- If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out: ------ [Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-psychological-transition-of-layoffs-with-leanne-elliott-1-2/) ------ [Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/ownership-through-failures-an-entrepreneurs-take-on-difficult-decisions-with-erik-gross-2-3/) ------ [Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/) ---------Also check out the discussion of [the most valuable knowledge framework with Erik Gross] (https://nerd-journey.com/monetize-yourself-leveraging-your-most-valuable-knowledge-with-erik-gross-3-3/) . --- If you’re searching for a job right now, check out these episodes: ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-resumes/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-the-job-search/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-1/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-2/) ------ [Episode 164 – Secrets of a LinkedIn Expert with Louise Bunyan] (https://nerd-journey.com/secrets-of-a-linkedin-expert-with-louise-bunyan-3-3/) ------For more episodes with the layoff tag on our site, check out [this list] (https://nerd-journey.com/tag/layoff/) . --- If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the [Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast] (https://truthliesandwork.com/) for a coaching session. ------Book a call with Al and Leanne [here] (https://calendar.app.google/krzDUDF5DpdMtunk6) . Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

03 Sep 2024

30 MINS

30:12

03 Sep 2024

#284

Reduction in Force: Navigating Layoff Trends in Tech with Real Job Talk (1/2)

Are layoffs in the tech industry a trend that will continue? What can IT workers do about it? Whether you’ve been impacted by a layoff event, lost colleagues in a layoff, or have just been watching from afar…this episode is part of a focused discussion on layoffs meant to encourage and advise all of us. This week in episode 290 we’re joined by Kat Nelson Troyer and Liz Bronson, the hosts of [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) , who bring a perspective on this topic from Human Resources, Recruitment, and Career Coaching. You’ll get to hear their take on the layoff trend with advice for those who have been impacted by a layoff and those who have lost colleagues in a layoff with some leadership advice sprinkled in along the way. Original Recording Date: 08-13-2024 Topics – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk, A Focused Discussion on Layoffs, Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech, Losing Colleagues, If You’ve Been Laid Off, Must Haves vs. Preferences =========================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:24 – Introducing the Hosts of Real Job Talk --------------------------------------------------- ---This week we have two guests who happen to be the co-hosts of [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) , a podcast sharing practical advice for mid-career professionals. --- [Liz Bronson] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/lizbronson/) is an HR Leader currently in transition, looking for her next opportunity. ------Liz has spent a number of years in HR (Human Resources) and recruiting roles. Her experience spans different startups, working at VMware for around 9 years, and running her own consulting firm. ------Liz likes to focus on employee experience and making places a great place to work. ------Her most recent roles were VP of People at SupportLogic and working at ThriveCart. --- [Kat Nelson Troyer] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/kathleennelsontroyer/) is an HR Consultant, leadership coach, and career coach. ------Kat started years ago as a recruiter and worked her way through HR (Human Resources). She first met Liz 20 years ago. They worked together as part of a recruiting team and have stayed friends ever since. ---About 6 years ago, Liz and Kat started the Real Job Talk Podcast. Kat says it was Liz’s idea but a very good one. ------On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz discuss topics like recruiting, job searching, navigating work transitions / work challenges, and have the occasional live coaching session. These topics are all to serve the mid-career professional. 4:35 – A Focused Discussion on Layoffs -------------------------------------------- ---We wanted to have a focused discussion on this trend of layoffs we’re seeing in the tech industry. John and Nick have their own perspectives on the topic, but this week we want to get perspective from Kat and Liz and their collective experience. ---Our overall structure is to have a discussion about how layoffs are impacting different personas: ------Initial thoughts on the layoff trend in our industry ------Advice for those who are seeing layoffs at other companies ------Advice for those who have lost colleagues in a layoff ------Advice for people impacted by a layoff ------Advice for leaders who make decisions to do a layoff at their company ------Advice for leaders who have to execute the layoff events 6:18 – Thoughts on Layoff Trends in Tech ---------------------------------------------- ---Kat ------Kat is seeing layoffs more so in the tech industry but also across other industries. She is most experienced navigating layoffs in tech. ------When layoffs are deemed necessary by executive leaders at a company, it creates challenges for Human Resources and to company culture. ---------How do you do this with empathy, and how do you make the decisions around who will be impacted? ---------How do you navigate employee morale after a layoff event? ------Kat has seen companies do the above really well and others stumble with it. She tries to look at those stumbles as opportunities for learning. ---Liz ------There are many different pieces to consider when running the project of a layoff (which Liz has had to do over the course of her career). Liz has had to lay off friends, colleagues, and even people she hired. ------“Does this ever get easier? …No. And it shouldn’t. And if it does check yourself before you wreck yourself. As HR people, we hate letting people go, especially as part of a RIF because we know it’s a surprise…. The best thing we can do as the company is to try to treat people with dignity and respect and try to help them as much as humanly possible.” – Liz Bronson, on the difficulty in executing layoffs ---------Note that RIF stands for Reduction in Force (another term used for a layoff event). ------HR departments might help personnel impacted by a layoff with some type of placement service, resume review, coaching, making sure people have the necessary paperwork, etc. Liz tells us HR personnel must also understand the legality of the situation. All of this takes an emotional toll on people. ------“From a leadership perspective, empathy is huge. Transparency is huger…. Leadership is hard. Hard decisions are hard, and you have to own them and get in the trenches and show some real gratitude for the people that have been with you on your journey and do everything you can to help them on their way.” – Liz Bronson ------Line managers and people who remain have to pull up the culture and be realistic. Focus on how to move the company forward. While the forward-facing view is important, don’t pretend the layoffs didn’t happen. ---John says people are concerned and unsure if this is only a trend, just a reassignment of labor, or something that will never end. ------Liz says there are cycles, and those who have been in industry for a while have seen these. There are cutbacks and then there is a push to hire. ------Things end up changing in our industry. Public cloud changed the landscape, and now AI is changing things as well. There has been a scaling back of investments. ------Liz shares a story from the time of the [dot-com bubble] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot-com_bubble) as an illustration. ---------She was a teacher and in her early 20s at that time and had peers with VP titles. When Liz asked how her friends made money, they said it was through advertising. When she asked if there was enough advertising for everyone to make money, they didn’t have a comment. ---------It turns out there was not enough advertising to go around, and thus the bubble burst. ---------This was a time of big change in the industry. Things got huge and expanded, and then there was a rightsizing exercise. This cycle has happened time and time again. ------None of us know exactly what will happen with our company, and the days of working for 30 years at a company, for example, are over. As employees we can: ---------Pay attention to the company’s financial health / overall organizational health. Ask questions. ---------Understand if the company you work for is hitting its sales and marketing goals. ---------Is the company built on a single product? Where is the technology for it going? ---------“We’ve got to be taking care of ourselves while working hard and taking care of our company. We don’t have entitlement, and we have to be aware of what’s around us.” – Liz Bronson ---------Liz thinks 2022 to present has been a rightsizing based on market shifts. But, this has happened before. ---Kat says in the technology industry, you have to take control of your professional development. ------It is extremely important to keep up in a fast-moving industry and to specialize. ------Stay in touch with people you have strong relationships with, including those you have worked with in the past. ------Your professional network is so important. Kat would advise those new to the tech industry to stay in touch with the people they admire and have a good connection with. It’s about more than just connecting on LinkedIn, but the connection on LinkedIn can be a starting point. ------Kat mentions she and Liz know people who use spreadsheets to keep in contact with important people, and it works really well. We can all have a system that helps us stay in touch with people in our professional network, whatever that looks like. ------"I think it’s all about knowing what you want and making sure you stay in touch with the people you want to stay in touch with and growing with the people who have values that are aligned with you. Those are going to be people that are going to be a good fit to work with you in the future. " – Kat Nelson Troyer ------Kat stresses the importance of knowing yourself throughout your career process, keeping your skills up to date, and keeping relationships strong. ---------Be clear on what your value proposition is and what you bring to the table. ------This is a cyclical pattern in tech. When companies like startups get a new round of funding or try to launch a new product, for example, often times they will over hire and later have to readjust. Kat feels this readjustment is what has been happening recently in our industry. ------It’s challenging to be laid off for sure. It can also be challenging to be someone who was not laid off and is left with 1/2 or 1/3 of the team. This increases workload for employees who stayed and can impact morale. Strong leadership is necessary as part of moving forward. ------Liz talks to a lot of people with [survivor’s guilt] (https://careerminds.com/blog/survivor-guilt-how-outplacement-can-boost-your-engagement-and-retention-rate) , and she has felt it as well. ---------This is where leadership, empathy, and transparency come into play. ------When COVID happened, a lot of people had to figure out work from home and whether it worked for them / their company. There was a lot of over hiring that happened due to the uncertainty and businesses booming. Liz tells us there’s a bit of a rightsizing exercise for some companies as a result of the above. ------When we see the rightsizing across the industry, whether it’s from afar or up close, we might be impacted or worry that it will eventually impact us. Much of it is out of our control, but we can be proactive in the things we do that are within our control (skilling up, making sure things are up to date, knowing our values, etc.). ---------Liz would add this is in the spirit of making sure your company needs you / what you have to offer. ------When we are in a position where we stayed and had colleagues impacted by a layoff, we can help by elevating their profile on LinkedIn, for example, while they navigate a job search. 16:59 – Losing Colleagues ------------------------------- ---If you are someone working at a company that has done layoffs, you may have lost a colleague (a teammate, a boss, etc.). How is the psychological impact different based on whether you’ve lost a teammate compared to losing your boss, for example? ------One big challenge is when you’re in the know before a layoff happens (i.e. when managers / HR / other leaders know in advance what is coming and who will be impacted). Confidential information has to be kept that way throughout the process. ------Liz says there is usually a cross functional team involved in executing a layoff, and it stinks being on that team. ------“The most challenging days of my career are days when I’ve been part of a layoff team.” – Kat Nelson Troyer ------There have been instances in our industry where managers did not know layoffs were happening and someone made decisions at the executive level. ------“I go back to what we were saying before though. It’s about transparency. It’s about moving forward. It’s about working together. It’s about repair. And you just have to be aware of what you’re doing to repair your team or your part of the company or your entire organization if you’re at the top. It’s about repair and moving forward…. And you can feel the feelings. Anyone who doesn’t let people acknowledge that it stinks, and anyone who doesn’t make a plan for their team for moving the work forward with half the people and figuring out together what stays, what goes, what can we push off…” – Liz Bronson ------If your team was cut down from 5 people to 3, the reality is some projects will need to be lowered in priority or taken off the team’s plate. ------One way to stand out as an individual contributor during these times is to be part of the solution. Be willing to take on / pick up some of the projects in flight so the team can move forward and be successful. ------The psychological impact of losing a specific colleague may depend on your relationship with the colleague. ---------There is likely more uncertainty if you lose your boss compared to a teammate. ---------Kat has seen losing a boss go different ways. Some folks are devastated and will be inclined to follow their former boss to a new company if there are opportunities. Getting a new manager even through a situation like this could also end up being a better fit for the team who lost their manager. ---------Kat would encourage us to try (even though it is very hard) to wrangle our mindsets to see the positives in the situation. It’s so much easier said than done. 21:42 – If You’ve Been Laid Off ------------------------------------- ---What can the person who was impacted by a layoff do? What advice do we have for them to move forward? ------Kat ---------Take time to gather yourself, and update your resume. ---------On Real Job Talk, Kat and Liz talk about the importance of having a personal board of advisors made up of ------------People who know you very well ------------People you respect ------------People you would turn to in times of career transition or times of navigating a challenging time at work ---------Make sure your personal board of advisors know what happened. Ask them for advice and to make introductions for you. ---------When looking for work, it really is a full-time job. Make sure you approach it that way! ---------Kat mentions they also talk about creating a Must Have List before you update your resume. Get clear on what you must have in order to either make a move from your current role or accept a new role. The list will be what you need to make a move that is a good fit. ------------Think beyond just salary and compensation package. Go back through your career and make some notes. ------------What kind of environment will I be working in? ------------What type of manager do I need / want? Think back on the good managers you’ve had and what made them great. ------------Values go into this as well. ------------Download the Must Have List Template from Real Job Talk [here] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) . ---------There’s a mindset piece and the tactical steps you need to take to get the new role. ------------I always say every e-mail, every interview, every conversation makes you one step closer to the offer." – Kat Nelson Troyer ------------Sometimes jobs come to us quickly, and sometimes it takes longer. The challenge is staying patient and firm in what you know you need to make the move. ------------“Of course, it’s a lot more comfortable when we’re employed, when we have a role, to be looking for another job. But when we’re all of a sudden out of work unexpectedly, that’s where we need to push ourselves even more to take the steps that we need to take and to have the conversations…” – Kat Nelson Troyer ---John asks about the mindset piece here and reflects on being caught in the 12,000 person Google Cloud layoff in 2023. Maybe there’s a certain process we need to allow ourselves to go through? ------You can hear the full story from John’s perspective in [Episode 202: John Got Fired] (https://nerd-journey.com/john-got-fired/) . ------“It’s not personal except it is personal to you because you all the sudden are doing a job search. So it’s 100% personal even though the decision may not be personal.” – Liz Bronson ------Liz had not really done a job search until last year and is now doing her 2nd job search within a year. When people ask Liz what she does, she tells them “I scream vulnerably into the wind all day.” ------Liz says searching for a job is hard after you’ve been impacted by a layoff. She encourages others to take breaks as needed. ------Right now the job market is a little weird. Liz talks to a lot of job seekers. ------Each day the job seeker should do their best while being outside their comfort zone. ------“I’ve learned more in this last year of hard than I’ve learned in any other year of my career. I’m grateful for my learning, and I can’t wait to see what’s next.” – Liz Bronson, reflecting on a job she took despite some red flags ------Liz has had 2 jobs eliminated. After one of these she was angry (especially after not being treated well), and she had a right to feel that way. ------Liz came to realize being angry wasn’t helping her and that she needed to get past it. But in order to do that, she had to be mad for a few weeks. ------With the job market being pretty tough right now, we need to remain open to doing different things. Remain open with a critical eye based on your must have list. ------Do things that bring you joy, and find your gratitude. Liz gets to exercise at times other than early morning without disrupting a set schedule, and she volunteers at [Dress for Success] (https://dressforsuccess.org/) . Liz has been able to spend more time with her kids this summer and is studying for a certification. ------Liz loves to help people and will talk to anyone. She participates in HR leader communities and startup expert communities and would encourage listeners to find communities to join and meet others in the industry. ------“I’ve built such a better network this year and had great conversations and helped people get unstuck, which is what I love to do, so it brings me the joy that I get in my job. And you just have to make sure that you’re doing things in your day besides screaming vulnerably into the wind because that part’s rough.” – Liz Bronson ------John says this sounds like experiencing your feelings is fine, but you can’t let them be a barrier to moving forward. ---------Liz would agree. When people stay angry and bitter, that is how they are showing up in an interview, even if they don’t realize it. ---------We’re speaking from a place of privilege, and it can be very scary when your bank account gets low. ---------Liz’s advice for people in this situation is figure out what you have to do to (drive for Uber / Lyft or something else part time if needed) to show up positively for jobs you want to get. Leading with fear and anger won’t land us our next job. ---------John says if you’re feeling those feelings 90% of your day, it would be hard to do an interview and not have those feelings show up. Liz says this might mean examples come across in the negative when you’re interviewed. ---------We can’t stuff the feelings down and not address them. We can talk to friends / our board of advisors or work them out at the gym. We have to work through the feelings and get past them to move forward. ------Kat heard someone suggest scheduling time to worry into your calendar. Maybe you give yourself 20 minutes every other day, and when you want to worry you know when it’s supposed to happen. ---------If we spend too much / all of our time ruminating on all the things we are worried about it will also show up in job interviews. The rumination can turn into stress and will come out in conversation with others. ---------John has scheduled time for working on specific projects and makes notes so he knows what to work on during that time. If we schedule time to worry, we can add intrusive thoughts to the worry list when they happen. Maybe we can use this to worry less during the times we’re not supposed to worry. ---------If it’s a public calendar you’re using, you might not want to label it as worry time. Choose a different label for the block of time in that case. ---------Maybe if we schedule time to worry it will end up cutting down overall worry time? ---------Nick references [Why Smart Kids Worry] (https://www.amazon.com/Why-Smart-Kids-Worry-Parents/dp/140228425X) and the concept of clearing your brain plate. Scheduling time to worry seems like a way to do this. Journaling could be a way to get your thoughts out as well. 32:49 – Must Haves vs. Preferences ---------------------------------------- ---If I really need a job, does my must have list naturally change? ------Liz says there is must have right now and must have long term. There are also must haves and nice to haves. ------For example, Liz needs to worry remotely or somewhere in office. She cannot relocate for a job. That’s a must have. ---------She could work in an office 3 days per week or maybe even 5 as long as it’s in Austin, but Liz would prefer a hybrid or work from home situation. ---------Five days per week in an office could work if other things aligned with the must have list. ---------Liz could also travel if needed maybe 25% of the time but not 90% of the time. ------Preferences and nice to haves are different than the must haves. Look at what you absolutely need. ------Liz shares the story of a past career coaching client as an illustration. This person had taken what she thought was the dream job but had a new baby and a 2-hour commute each way. This person realized part of the must have list was being closer to home. ------“The musts are the things that you can’t compromise on, and then other things can ebb and flow as needs arise or don’t.” – Liz Bronson, on the must have list ------John says there is some prioritization that we need to do as finances dwindle. Maybe we decide what to cut based on how urgent / dire our situation becomes. ---------John says certain things may be must haves except for a certain amount of money (which may be way more than you think anyone would ever pay you). ---------Kat says if you are considering any kind of relocation (even if not ideal), consider what you need to relocate. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- --- If you’re looking for more advice related to layoffs, check out: ------ [Episode 237 – The Psychological Transition of Layoffs with Leanne Elliott (1/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/the-psychological-transition-of-layoffs-with-leanne-elliott-1-2/) ------ [Episode 268 – Ownership through Failures: An Entrepreneur’s Take on Difficult Decisions with Erik Gross (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/ownership-through-failures-an-entrepreneurs-take-on-difficult-decisions-with-erik-gross-2-3/) ------[Episode 280 – Life after Layoff: A Leader’s Sense of Duty and A Series of Good Conversations with Marni Coffey (3/3)](https://nerd-journey.com/life-after-layoff-a-leaders-sense-of-duty-and-a-series-of-good-conversations-with-marni-coffey-3-3/ ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Resumes] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-resumes/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of the Job Search] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-the-job-search/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 1] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-1/) ------ [Revisiting the Foundations of Job Interviews, Part 2] (https://nerd-journey.com/revisiting-the-foundations-of-job-interviews-part-2/) --- More resources from [Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/) : ------ [Surviving a Layoff] (https://realjobtalk.com/10-surviving-a-layoff) ------ [Starting Your New Job Search] (https://realjobtalk.com/2) ------ [Resources page with Must Have List template] (https://realjobtalk.com/resources) ------ [Subscribe to Real Job Talk] (https://realjobtalk.com/subscribe) --- If you’ve been impacted by a layoff, reach out to Al and Leanne Elliott, hosts of the [Truth, Lies, and Workplace Culture Podcast] (https://truthliesandwork.com/) for a coaching session. ------Book a call with Al and Leanne [here] (https://calendar.app.google/krzDUDF5DpdMtunk6) . Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

27 Aug 2024

39 MINS

39:56

27 Aug 2024

#283

Enhance Your Personal Brand: Feedback as a Catalyst for Change with Dale McKay (2/2)

How often do you ask other people for feedback? Why are you asking for feedback in the first place, and what will you do with the feedback you receive? Dale McKay, our guest this week in episode 289, would remind us that the purpose of feedback is to make ourselves better, and we can articulate that purpose to other people when we ask them for honest feedback. This week we talk through Dale’s experience as a technical instructor and consultant with undertones of mentorship sprinkled in along the way. You’ll hear Dale emphasize the importance of enhancing your personal brand and the importance of creating positive feedback loops in that process. Original Recording Date: 07-10-2024 [Dale McKay] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmckay2/) is currently a VMware consultant working with federal customers. If you missed part 1 of our discussion with Dale, check out [Episode 288] (https://nerd-journey.com/guardrails-for-growth-a-mentors-experience-with-dale-mckay-1-2/) . Topics – An Interest in Mentorship, The Consultant’s Role, Personal Brand, Asking for and Processing Feedback, Feedback through Role Transitions, Closing Thoughts ================================================================================================================================================================== 2:25 – An Interest in Mentorship -------------------------------------- ---John highlights very few organizations have formal training or specific schools for different disciplines like the military does. Could that gap be where Dale’s interest in mentorship came from? ------Dale says yes. ------He worked for ATT back when they had a corporate training campus. They would send employees there for different trainings on both technical and soft skills. It was conducted by trainers who were ATT employees who were very effective instructors. ---------Dale doesn’t know of many other companies today who have that same concept where employees get weeks off to go and build skills in this way. ------John remembers hearing stories about management training for GE personnel being almost like going to graduate school. We have replaced a lot of in-person training with computer-based training, and there seems to be a gap. ------Dale was at one point a corporate trainer for Dell, and most of the courses he taught were 1 week in length. ---------“There’s an interaction that takes place inside the classroom in a face-to-face setting that you’re never going to be able to replicate with computer training.” – Dale McKay ---------The social aspects of what happen in and around the classroom setting can’t be replicated virtually. Dale highlights the side conversations we might have with folks in person or things like going to lunch or dinner with someone. ------------John refers to the above as the creation of a cohort, a unit that learns and works together. Maybe this is true for remote work vs. in office work too? ------------Dale would agree with this and mentions he has worked remotely for a lot of his career. But too much remote work can make you feel like you miss out on some of the camaraderie. ------------Dale gives the example of a particular team of people he worked with who planned to go to dinner and to see a movie premier together. ------------“We don’t have to necessarily like everybody that we work with, but we do have to work with them, so if you can do something with them that pulls both of you together, I think those are all good things. And that’s what we used to have in the classroom.” – Dale McKay ------------Reflecting back on week long training courses in the past, Dale feels attendees would walk out of that experience respecting one another and feeling it was a week well spent. 7:37 – The Consultant’s Role ---------------------------------- ---Does a mentor have something to teach not so different from a classroom instructor? Nick thinks so, and Dale agrees. ------John mentioned earlier that we cannot go to school and get a degree in consulting, for example. Dale has held a number of consulting roles during his career, including being a TAM (still a consulting type role). ------“Consulting is what you make of it, and if you want to be that consultant that teaches as part of that consulting role, then I think most customers embrace that.” – Dale McKay ------Dale gives an example of a teaching conversation he had with one of his customers about NSX and just how much the customer appreciated it. ------Dale says we can forget that these teachable moments exist when we get into too much of a transactional nature. The time Dale spent with this customer was what that person needed at the time to fill gaps in understanding so they could work together to accomplish something. Dale shares this as an example of working within the guardrails a mentor provides. ---It seems like a consultant is a gap filler who meets the person they are working with where they are, much like the instructor and the mentor would do. ------Dale says that is a consistent theme throughout his career and something on which he prides himself. ------“In every consulting case, people are paying money for you to help them with a problem. If you go in there and make it a very transactional thing…you’ve missed an opportunity for your company and for yourself to further both your company brand and your own brand. Stop for a minute, and don’t make it so transactional. Have a conversation…. Let them educate you for a little bit so that you in turn can take that knowledge and help them be better. At the end of the day, that’s what I think every consultant should have on their mind….leave the situation you came into better if it’s at all possible.” – Dale McKay ---------A consultant should take the time to learn about what the person they are helping wants to accomplish. ------John thinks Dale is interpreting the role of a consultant as someone who can be a catalyst for change within the organization, which could be a small change or perhaps a large change. Maybe being a catalyst for change should be in the job description for a consultant? ------Dale would lump being a Technical Account Manager into the consultant category. ---------Many people call themselves consultants. Some are very good, and some are just mediocre. ---------Exceling in consulting is really about a willingness to go the extra mile and a focus on having the customer feel like you’ve made them better. ------Does being a consulting mean you have to do a ton of traveling? ---------Dale says we should expect some travel to be involved when working as a consultant. ---------Listen to the story Dale shares about finding a common interest with his customer because they had a conversation over lunch. That kind of thing is not written in a statement of work. ---------“If you allow yourself to play that role of a consultant, play that role of that gap filler, play that role of someone who is here just to make things better…then you’re going to have some of that interaction that’s going to further your brand.” – Dale McKay 13:26 – Personal Brand ---------------------------- ---The phrase personal brand should not be new to us. ------If it is, [check out other episodes from our catalogue discussing personal brand] (https://nerd-journey.com/tag/personal-brand/) . ------“That’s what a career journey is all about…establishing and enhancing your own personal brand.” – Dale McKay ------If we leave places better than we found them, our personal brand goes up (kind of like a stock). ------Dale thinks most companies are aware of people’s personal brand. ------“Your personal brand might be great. It doesn’t always mean that you’re going to get the promotion. That also is not reason for you to give up on enhancing your personal brand…. Your personal brand is yours. You take that with you wherever you go.” – Dale McKay, on the nature of work in corporate America ------When we choose to leave a company, we leave some sort of legacy behind. Was what was left behind a good legacy or a bad legacy? That’s the kind of question we need to consider when working to enhance our personal brand. ------Dale says if personal brand is not important to us, then likely our career is not important to us. ---------John says these are connected (personal brand and career), and it is important for us to think about and understand that connection if we want to have a career. ---------We often have a me-centric view of the world and do not stop to think about how others might be perceiving us or the messages we could be giving off with our actions. For example, if you are extremely effective, are you perceived as extremely effective? Those are different things. ---------It may be as simple as whether you have a positive mindset or a negative mindset. ------Nick says usually it is the people we work with who know what our personal brand is (co-workers, boss, etc.), and that is how the company knows what our brand is. ---------“Does your boss know your personal brand? Does your boss know what your ethos, what your foundation is?” – Dale McKay, on perceptions from others ---------Dale would encourage us to put ourselves in our boss’s shoes and think about how they perceive us. ---------Dale feels he would be perceived as responsive, factual, and always willing by his boss. These would be the foundational elements of his personal brand. ------John says we can ask each other to articulate what we’re trying to put out as our personal brand. Then we can ask if other people are perceiving us as those things. If there is a gap, think about what can be done to bridge the gap. 24:54 – Asking for and Processing Feedback ------------------------------------------------ ---While he worked for VMware, Dale had the chance to work with a coach through [BetterUp] (https://www.betterup.com/) for 3 consecutive years. ------Each year when coaching sessions would begin, Dale’s coach (who was the same for all 3 years) would ask him to do a [360 evaluation] (https://www.predictiveindex.com/blog/360-evaluations-everything-you-need-to-know/) . This involved sending a feedback form to his boss, people on his team, and even to customers he supported. ------The most important thing during this process is for people who are giving the feedback to be honest. ------This method is one of the best ways to understand how people perceive you, especially if you are trying to change how you’re perceived in certain areas. ------Dale wonders if more organizations might benefit from implementing 360 degree evaluations. With annual reviews maybe becoming less common, there may be a gap in how we want to be perceived and how others perceive us. ------“I think that’s where there’s a gap in how I want to be perceived and then how you perceive me because if we never have that conversation, I don’t know what the answer is.” – Dale McKay, on feedback ------Nick says we don’t think to have those conversations very often because we make an assumption that others are perceiving us in a certain way. ------The feedback in a 360 assessment could be anonymous. Dale says people would say things in that feedback that they would not or could not say to your face. But each time he went through one of these there would be a new piece of insight he would gain. ------“You can’t fix what you don’t know is wrong. If you know something is wrong and you don’t fix it, that’s on you. If you don’t know that it’s wrong, then maybe that’s on someone else that they need to tell you. I’ve had mentors through my career that didn’t hesitate to tell me when I did something wrong. And while that may be perceived as harsh or any other word that we would want to assign…the reality is I was probably better off for that criticism or that correction.” – Dale McKay ------Nick says there is ego involved, especially when you receive feedback that you are not doing something as well as you thought you were. ------“You’re asking for somebody to evaluate your work, and it’s very difficult for us in our society to distinguish between evaluating our work and evaluating our person.” – John White, on the difficulty of removing ego when receiving feedback ---------We might hear a criticism of our work to say “you’re not a great person.” ---------Being able to take criticism without getting an attitude about it is something Dale feels he struggled with earlier in his career. ---------“Once I got past that and saw that most of the time the criticism I was receiving was not intended to be tearing down criticism but it was intended to be constructive criticism, then I could take that and use it to make myself better.” – Dale McKay, on accepting criticism ---------We should also consider the source of criticism because there is constructive criticism and destructive criticism. It is ok to reject destructive criticism, but it’s a big problem to reject constructive criticism. ---------Constructive criticism may provide us something we really need to work through, but the end goal is that it will make us better. We have to understand and interpret it, and then take action on it. ------People managers like John get engagement surveys submitted anonymously by employees. John says it is an interesting process to get the results of that feedback and make a plan to get improvement. He is early into his career as a people manager and ok with having several areas in which to improve. ------Dale emphasizes the criticality of asking others for feedback. We might think we are doing great, but it’s only our perception until we solicit feedback from others. ---How should those of us not used to asking people to provide feedback approach the conversation? ------If Dale was giving advice to a mentee, he would encourage them to go and solicit feedback. ------“And that conversation may be as simple as…‘there’s a few areas I’m trying to improve on. I would really appreciate if you could just give me some feedback on this.’” – Dale McKay, on a suggested way to ask for feedback ------We can use e-mail, a face-to-face conversation, or a phone call as mediums to ask others for feedback. ------Dale suggests we be specific about what we want feedback on, emphasize the need for honesty, and give the person time to think about it (i.e. don’t make them answer on the spot). ------We are going to feel vulnerable asking others for feedback, and there’s really no way around that part. ------“You have to evaluate that feedback with a very unbiased view of yourself.” – Dale McKay 26:59 – Feedback through Role Transitions ----------------------------------------------- ---Did Dale have to ask for feedback during functional and job role changes in his career like the one he made moving from Technical Account Manager (TAM) to working in Technical Marketing? These roles are functionally quite different but have some similarities. ------The technical marketing role would require more 1-to-many interactions, requiring more public speaking and content creation (videos, presentation slides, blog articles, etc.). ------Dale says it was a little bit of a natural shift to move into technical marketing, and he got plenty of feedback along the way. Not all of it felt great when it came at him, but after looking at it as unbiased as he could, Dale believes it made him better. ---------Nick suggests just as we would give someone time to formulate feedback for us, we should give ourselves time to process once we receive feedback. ---------Dale gives the example of creating a video and sending a request for feedback to his boss and greater team. Upon initial examination we might think others are being nitpicky if they suggest changing the color of a line or decreasing use of filler words, but Dale tells us to remember each bit of feedback is likely going to make what you are trying to produce better (whether it be a presentation or something else). ------John says the things we want to improve might seem perfect if we are the only audience. We need to find out what other people see as needing to improve, especially when the audience for something we are creating will not be just us. ---------Dale was a bit surprised at getting so much feedback on some of the presentations or videos he created and thought were very good. He encourages us to step back from our work and let go of the emotion as we digest the feedback. ---------“It makes it more appealing to people other than you, which was the whole goal anyway.” – Dale McKay, on the value of receiving and incorporating feedback to make our work better ---------John says we have plenty of opportunities to create content that only we will see like a knowledge note about a process. Maybe we can learn to be more honest with ourselves when we revisit something we previously created. For example, can we still follow it? If not, maybe we needed feedback from others. ------Dale says our understanding of a problem may not be accurate because we are not infallible. Validating our understanding is the same as getting feedback. ------Annual reviews are just another way to provide feedback from sources outside ourselves. 32:14 – Closing Thoughts ------------------------------ ---The thing John is taking away from this conversation is positive feedback loops. There are so many ways we can get them – mentorship, coaching, peer reviews, etc. ------“It’s uncomfortable to engage and solicit and uncomfortable to listen to, but it is really the only way that we improve.” – John White, on feedback ---“Hopefully there are people out there who will listen to this and will take it to heart because at the end of the day, your personal brand, your career is all up to you…. This is yours. You’re the one that’s driving. Find that mentor that’s going to help you establish that set of guardrails, but you’re still the one that’s driving your own career. And you have to take responsibility for it no matter what point you are in your career. Even if you’re laid off…you have to take responsibility for keeping yourself on track, moving in the direction that you need to move.” – Dale McKay ---To follow up with Dale on this conversation, contact him on LinkedIn [here] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmckay2/) . Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---John mentioned a consultant as being a catalyst for change within an organization. The consultant can be a catalyst for change in a specific person or even multiple people. It’s a result of the teachable moments. ------You can do this kind of thing in a lot of roles and be a catalyst for change in other people. But we need to be mindful and look for these opportunities. Think more about the people you work with and what they need to get better. ------This sounds a lot like what a technical lead should seek to do. For more on that topic, check out these episodes: --------- [Episode 279 – Change Management: The Hardest Leap and Developing People with Marni Coffey (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/change-management-the-hardest-leap-and-developing-people-with-marni-coffey-2-3/) --------- [Episode 286 – Succession Planning: Delegation Skills and Technical Ownership with Max Kanat-Alexander (2/3)] (https://nerd-journey.com/succession-planning-delegation-skills-and-technical-ownership-with-max-kanat-alexander-2-3/) ---If the only feedback you’re getting is you are doing great / fine, Nick feels this is a red flag. It could mean… ------The people you’re asking may not feel comfortable being completely honest with you. Perhaps you haven’t built enough rapport with them or they have not seen enough of your work to be able to give a good piece of feedback to you. Maybe we should seek to build better relationships with others before asking for feedback. ------You haven’t been specific enough on the feedback you want. Are you seeking feedback on a behavior, an attitude, or on your work? ---------If it’s your work, do you want to know about your presentation contents / the slides you made, your energy level during a presentation’s delivery, how well you explained something, etc.? ---------Emphasize the intention of the feedback is to make you better through their honesty, and give people time to provide the feedback. ------You may need to ask some different people who can give a different perspective / viewpoint. Maybe you’ve been asking the same people for feedback too often. ------It would be so much better to receive some constructive criticism now compared to a year from now or 6 months from now so we can take action. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ------Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

20 Aug 2024

40 MINS

40:43

20 Aug 2024

#282

Guardrails for Growth: A Mentor’s Experience with Dale McKay (1/2)

What would the job description for a mentor look like? For Dale McKay, our guest this week in episode 288, mentoring is a passion area. In fact, Nick has been blessed to have Dale as his mentor for several years. Today, Dale McKay is a VMware consultant working with federal customers. In this discussion Dale shares his Naval experience and tech industry origins, the transition to civilian life, and a number of thoughts on the mentor / mentee relationship. Original Recording Date: 07-10-2024 Topics – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings, Adapting to Civilian Life, Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience, A Mentor’s Job Description, Advice for the Mentee ====================================================================================================================================================================================== 2:08 – Naval Service and Tech Beginnings ---------------------------------------------- --- [Dale McKay] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/dmckay2/) is currently a VMware consultant working through a company called Kforce. This is a fairly new opportunity for Dale, and his security clearance aligns well to working with federal customers. ------Dale mentioned the role has been great so far, and he really enjoys interacting with customers face to face. ------In addition to a background and experience with VMware technologies (like NSX and others), Dale has a background in networking. ---Dale grew up in Memphis, and his only path to college was through scholarship. He was a member of ROTC in high school, and since he did not get a scholarship, he enlisted in the Navy. ---In the Navy, Dale was part of the advanced electronics program, and his entry into the service came before the personal computer (PC). ------Dale went through around 15 months of training in advanced electronics which later became something he could lean on later in his career. ------During the 5 years Dale was in the Navy, he was part of a submarine crew (what we might call the silent service). Dale built relationships during his Naval service that last even to this day (including mention of an upcoming reunion). ------Reflecting on his time in the Navy, Dale feels it was a great place to start and afforded him more opportunity than he would have had if he had stayed in his hometown. ---Upon enlisting in the Navy, did Dale get to choose his area of focus, or was it automatically assigned to him? ------After signing up for the advanced electronics program intentionally, Dale did get to choose what he wanted to do after that but was told the Navy needed missile technicians. ---------Part of his studies while in the advanced electronics program would include the missile technician discipline based on the above. ------Dale was able to get into the advanced electronics program after enlisting based on his [ASVAB (Armed Services Vocational Aptitude Battery)] (https://www.officialasvab.com/) test cores. ---After 5 years in the Navy, Dale feels like he struggled for the next couple of years much like many other veterans. But, he was given some opportunities based on the skills he gained during Naval service. ---Dale’s first civilian job was a biomedical equipment field engineer. ------He would go to hospitals and work on EKG equipment. ------At that time, it was still acceptable to repair equipment in the field. Dale and others in the role needed to know how to repair and work with the electronic components of these devices n the field. ------The industry later decided it was more efficient and cost optimal to send replacement EKG units to hospitals instead of trying to repair them in the field. ------Dale feels the base understanding of electricity and electronics and has helped him grasp other technology concepts throughout his career. ---Was the interest in electronics there before Dale enlisted in the Navy? Were there any other influences to the choice to focus on electronics? ------Dale didn’t get a chance to work on personal computers before going into the Navy because they did not yet exist, but he did work on car stereos and thinks perhaps that is the source of the interest in electronics. ------“I didn’t even know the word career at that point. I just knew that the Navy was going to pay me money and they were going to give me a skill, and that sounded pretty cool. And I got to travel.” – Dale McKay 10:55 – Adapting to Civilian Life --------------------------------------- ---What are some of the challenges people don’t see when it comes to adapting to civilian life after military service? ------“In the service, you are never your own master, and when you get out of the service you are your own master. So what kind of master are you going to be?” – Dale McKay ------Dale feels like he struggled with the above a little bit after leaving the Navy, mentioning that he grew his hair and beard out as one example as a result of the freedom. ------Dale mentions in our careers we hit a point where we wonder if the path we are on will serve us long term. ---------In this light, he says we can start to wonder if we should do things differently or have a different attitude. ------Many people, after stepping out of the discipline of the Navy, decided they never wanted to be controlled again, for example. ---------Dale says he had his time of rebellion but recognized it was not going to be helpful to stay in that state long term, making changes to course correct. ---This reminds John of conversations he’s had in other contexts where people have left a culture and then spending time defining themselves later in opposition of that culture. ------John says people can exit a culture and decide to take lessons learned and relationships with them, moving forward without defining themselves in relation to what they left. ------Dale says there’s another aspect here where people can decide not to move forward and would rather regress a little bit. This is where people can get into trouble. ---------There were not the number of programs to help veterans like there are today when Dale left the Navy. People had to figure out the transition on their own. ---------Dale cites being a part of numerous programs for veterans while working for VMware such as [Skillbridge] (https://skillbridge.osd.mil/) . This program would provide internship opportunities for veterans at different businesses, for example. 15:15 – Structure of the Trades and Sharing Your Industry Experience -------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---John wonders what we’re doing for the youth of our country to help them develop the skills to work in roles at technology vendors (consultants, tech marketing, solution engineers, and other roles that are a bit more nuanced). There’s not a clear path into these roles through college, and it is somewhat hazy. ------Maybe things like mentoring or some type of apprenticeship are options to get there, they are less structured than what we might see in the trades (the apprentice / journeyman / master model). ------Dale recently read that many college age folks are choosing to pursue the trades instead of college. ------Dale feels a lot of our youth’s way forward is to return to the trades. ---------The trades teach what we Dale might call hard skills. Someone with an electrician’s license or a good plumber can get work just about anywhere, for example. As long as someone has the demonstrated hard trade skill they are very employable. ---------A college diploma doesn’t necessarily guarantee someone a job like perhaps it once did. ------Dale shares a mentoring story to illustrate about someone we will call Joe. ---------When Dale met Joe, it was after Joe had posted on LinkedIn about passing his first Cisco exam. ---------Dale reached out to Joe to congratulate him and established a mentoring relationship with Joe (who was 14 at the time). Previous to mentoring Joe, Dale met Joe’s parents and expressed his desire to help Joe further his Cisco expertise. ---------Dale and Joe would meet together on Saturdays to go over networking exam concepts and leverage Dale’s extensive Cisco home lab as needed. ---------Joe passed his [CCNA (Cisco Certified Network Associate)] (https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/certifications/enterprise/ccna/index.html) around age 15 after working with Dale followed by his [CCNP (Cisco Certified Network Professional)] (https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/certifications/enterprise/ccnp-enterprise/index.html) a year or so later. ---------When Joe turned 18, he sat for his first [CCIE (Cisco Certified Internetwork Expert)] (https://www.cisco.com/site/us/en/learn/training-certifications/certifications/expert/index.html) lab despite not passing the first attempt. ---------Joe now works as part of the Apple network engineering team, and his first job at Apple was over 6 figures (plus stock grants). Joe did not need to graduate from college to get the job, but Dale tells us Joe has taken some college courses to further his expertise since then. ---------Dale thinks the youth of our nation need to focus on developing hard, demonstrable skills that can get you good jobs. ------If those with experience in the technology industry are not reaching back to help others coming into the industry through mentoring or some other avenue, new / potential industry entrants will be left to figure it out on their own (much like veterans had to do in the past when exiting the military). ---------“I think it’s incumbent upon us to do it. Because if we don’t, they are left to develop that on their own. And I think that that’s almost a very selfish move on our part because we have this knowledge. We have this experience that is invaluable to people like that. You can go and lay that at their feet, let them pick up and use whatever it is that they want. But at least you’ve made that effort to try and help them better themselves by utilizing your knowledge and your experience.” – Dale McKay, on a call to action for those experienced in the tech industry to help others succeed in this industry 19:09 – A Mentor’s Job Description ---------------------------------------- ---What is a mentor, and what is a mentee? ------“In my mind, a mentor does 2 things – he erects a set of guardrails for your career, but he will not let you fly over that guardrail. You may hit it. You may hit it hard, but he’s not going to let you fly over that guardrail. That’s the first thing he does. The second thing he does…that mentor is the one who shoves that mentee out so that he volunteers for something that he didn’t think he could do or he didn’t think he would be good at…and just needs that little extra shove that says, ‘yeah, that’s you. Go ahead. You can do this.’” – Dale McKay ---------Nick has been the victim of some of those shoves thanks to Dale. And they worked out great every single time. ------When a mentor erects the guardrails for a mentee, they will in the process share a great deal of experience and knowledge. ------The shove from behind from the mentor helps us answer those ‘what if’ questions and do things that we won’t later regret. ---------“That could have been an inflection point in your own career or in your own life. And why didn’t you do it? Because you hesitated, and if you had not hesitated, things could have been different. I’m not excluding myself from this group. I’ve had those moments. I didn’t always have someone to shove me through that open door.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in helping a mentee avoid hesitation ------Listen to Dale’s illustration about looking through a doorway but drawing back and not going in and then what happens sometimes when you get shoved in by someone else (a mentor). ------John summarizes the mentor’s role as providing structure and ensuring the mentee is consistently challenged. ------Dale has worked with some of his mentees on goal setting. ---------He tells us a mentor should never set the goal for a mentee. The mentee must set the goals. ---------A mentor can help you achieve a goal by holding you accountable, but it will be up to the mentee to figure the “how” of achieving the goal. ---------If a mentee is studying for a certification and not making progress, for example, the mentor would then take action to hold the mentee accountable. Dale describes adjusting a guardrail for the mentee after investigating what the real issue is. ---------“…Adjust that guardrail based on where that issue is. Maybe it’s a family commitment. Ok, I get it. Maybe it’s hard material. Ok, I get that too. But let’s adjust that guardrail so that we still keep moving forward towards that ultimate goal of getting that cert pass.” – Dale McKay, on the mentor’s role in adjusting guardrails ---What made Dale want to mentor people in the first place? ------Dale isn’t sure why he enjoys mentoring so much. ------A mentor might help a mentee with something fairly general (overall career) or something very specific (i.e. based on a certain task). ------Dale says when a mentee takes working with him seriously and he gets to see them succeed because of their hard work, it is a great feeling. ------“I like to see people succeed, but when I know they have succeeded because of maybe that set of guardrails that I put in place and helped them steer down that path, I walk away with a good feeling knowing that I have helped them to realize something that maybe they wouldn’t have been able to realize by themselves…maybe” – Dale McKay ------Dale emphasizes that when he mentors people, the mentees do the work. He just provides the focus guardrails to help the mentee get to where they want to go. ---What about determining whether there is a fit between mentor and mentee? ------Dale has had mentee / mentor relationships that did not work. ------Dale says there is a very important rule for those seeking to become a mentor – none of this applies to your immediate family. ------Dale mentions the work of [Tony Robbins] (https://tonyrobbins.com/) and [Brendon Burchard] (https://brendon.com/) highlighting that it is extremely hard to mentor the people closest to you because they can see your flaws. ------John says there can be emotional overtones that come along with structural conversations and holding others accountable. It’s nice to have someone at an emotional distance so it does not ruin an existing relationship. ------“That’s one piece of advice I give all those aspiring mentors. Don’t practice this at home because your results will probably not be indicative of how good of a mentor you could actually be.” – Dale McKay 27:17 – Advice for the Mentee ----------------------------------- ---For the person needing mentorship, how can we determine if we have found a mentor who can help? ------As a mentee, Dale says you need to ask how a specific mentor can help you. It may sound selfish, but it’s really important to consider. ------You need an area or a focus for mentorship when looking for a mentor. ------If looking for mentorship on career growth, seeking out someone at the same level as you doesn’t make sense. Neither does seeking out the CEO of your company. ---------“What you want to find is someone who’s already been down that journey and can show you where the pitfalls are, where the rocks are, where the easy path is. That’s what you want to get as a mentee out of that mentor…. I think it’s up to the mentee to determine what he wants out of this relationship, and he needs to communicate that to the mentor. And if the mentor is not on board with that, then you need to move on until you find one that is on board. It’s just going to be a waste of your time if the two of you aren’t going in the same direction.” – Dale McKay ---Asking yourself what you want from a mentor should in a way point you in a direction to find one. Nick hypothesizes that we don’t require a mentor who works in the same industry or discipline as we do. ------For example, if we need advice on people management, there are lessons we can learn about being a leader regardless of whether someone is a manager in technology or outside of it. They may be specific nuances to being a manager in technology that we need to understand from a different mentor, however. ------Dale says we need to understand the background of anyone we want to mentor us. If a possible mentor does not have experience in an area where you need help, they won’t be able to effectively guide you as a mentee. ------“I can’t learn people management by reading books or attending seminars. I have to roll my sleeves up and do it.” – Dale McKay, on the need for a mentor with experience ------The mentee should decide first what they want out of the relationship with a mentor. If it’s career growth, what does that mean to you? Be specific. ---------Does career growth mean getting a promotion? ---------Does career growth mean expanded knowledge? ---------Does career growth mean industry recognition? ---------Does career growth mean you want to deliver a presentation at a technology conference? ------“As a mentor, it’s about me sharing my experience with the mentee. If I don’t have that experience, then I don’t have what that mentee needs.” – Dale McKay ---------Dale says he has had instances where he did not have the experience needed to help a mentee. In that situation, be honest, and consider pointing the mentee to someone else who could help. ------Dale says the mentor / mentee relationship can’t just be transactional. There needs to be some kind of personal relationship between mentee and mentor. Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Nick says if the mentor and mentee can develop a personal relationship and get to know one another, mentors have a way of delivering the right advice just when you need it. Dale has done this so many times for Nick! ---The match between mentor and mentee is really important. If a mentor does not have the experience you as a mentee need, they are not the right mentor! ------Nick was paired up with Dale as part of a formal mentoring program after becoming a CTO Ambassador at VMware. Before agreeing to work together, Dale had Nick first go and speak with other mentees of Dale’s to understand what to expect and determine if it would be valuable to move forward together. Nick didn’t expect a mentor to be so focused on providing value to the mentee. Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ---Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

13 Aug 2024

38 MINS

38:16

13 Aug 2024

#281

Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander ...

Can we progress to the highest levels of the technical career ladder like senior staff or principal without destroying our lives? Max Kanat-Alexander would say it comes down to getting very clear about what your job is and is not. Those seeking to become principal engineers must relentlessly focus on the work they are uniquely suited to deliver within a specified scope. This week in episode 287 you’ll hear Max recount how he became one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team at LinkedIn. Max shares a series of questions for evaluating what could be next in our careers and how we might decide between people management and remaining at the individual contributor level. Original Recording Date: 06-30-2024 [Max Kanat-Alexander] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mkanat/) is a Principal Staff Software Engineer at LinkedIn and is one of the technical leads for the developer productivity and happiness team. He is also the author of technical books such as [Code Simplicity: The Fundamentals of Software] (https://www.codesimplicity.com/book/) . If you missed part 1 or part 2 of our discussion with Max, check out [Episode 285] (https://nerd-journey.com/contribute-back-embracing-the-open-source-spirit-with-max-kanat-alexander-1-3/) and [Episode 286] (https://nerd-journey.com/succession-planning-delegation-skills-and-technical-ownership-with-max-kanat-alexander-2-3/) . Topics – The Principal Engineer and Deciding Where to Focus, Boundaries, Individual Contributors and Managers, Developer Productivity, Evaluating What’s Next ============================================================================================================================================================= 3:09 – The Principal Engineer and Deciding Where to Focus --------------------------------------------------------- ---With so many problems you could solve once at the staff or principal engineer level, how do you decide what you will focus on next, and how do you do it without destroying your life? ------“You need to decide on a set of strategic initiatives that you own. You cannot just be the ‘I do everything and help everybody generalist.’ You can’t just be constantly running around putting out all the fires because you know better.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, advice for the senior staff engineer ------Strategic ownership of a project means you are responsible for that project’s outcomes and that you have agreed upon it with your manager. ------“Any piece of work, if you can do it the instant you get it, do it the instant you get it… And the more you do that the less you will build up an overwhelming backlog of things that you now just can’t ever handle.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ---------Max would include Slack messages in the above. Even if you are not entirely certain of an answer, you can answer the message immediately and qualify your answer. ---------If something can be done in the next 5 minutes, do it in the next 5 minutes and send it out. ------“You need to know specifically what’s your job and what only you can do. And you need to only do the things that only you can do. And anything that anybody else can do, you need to either assign it to them or help them learn how to do it… You have to be ruthless with yourself on this by the way.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the importance of delegation ---------Max tells us it is tempting to try and do all the work yourself and that sometimes even he fails in this area. Listen to his example of responding to a question in a Slack thread that someone else should have answered. ---------It’s important to be very clear with yourself on what is and is not your job. ---------At Max’s level, he and his manager agree about the things Max will work on, but the way in which Max achieves the work he has set out to do is up to him (not really a concern of his manager’s). Max makes decisions based on the impact he has promised to deliver and rarely needs to work outside of normal working hours. ------“I am always on the lookout for problems that are critical to the business in the scope that I’ve been assigned.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on making decisions about where to focus his time and effort ---------Max doesn’t really get assigned tasks but rather scopes. One example scope he shares is solving engineering metrics for the company (starting with the developer productivity and happiness team and moving beyond that). ---------Within the scope described above, Max would need to decide which metrics to work on first, which teams to work with, etc. This requires Max have a framework for making decisions and that he get the required data to help him make each decision. ---------“And if I ever can’t make the decision it’s either because I don’t have a principle about how to make it or that I don’t have the data that I need. And so one of the most key skills is figuring out what data you don’t have.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ------To Nick, the above sounds like an exercise in dependency mapping. Does this come from project management skills gained while working on these large problems? ---------This skill, which Max says every engineer should develop, is the same as requirements gathering. ---------“One of my observations that I have of engineers is that every single time you cannot solve a problem is because there is something about the problem you do not understand, not because there’s something about the solution you don’t understand… Getting this through to engineers is one of the hardest things I’ve ever done. People absolutely want to solve the problem way, way more than they want to understand the problem.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ---------Nick mentions continuing to ask questions to ensure we understand the problem can sometimes annoy people, and in these cases we may have to explain that we are seeking only to understand better. ---------Max says we can know we have all the necessary data when a solution is obvious and we are confident about it. And if we are not completely confident in our solutions, it means we have never gathered enough information about the problem. 9:20 – Boundaries ----------------------- ---How can we set the type of boundaries needed without appearing like we’re being mean or jerkish? ------Max says our social skills really matter in this area. ------Not everyone else inherently knows what our job is and is not, and we have to learn to redirect them helpfully. ------This also requires we make some judgment calls. Max mentions sometimes it would be a detriment for him to answer on behalf of others (i.e. especially if it’s about timelines owned by the manager of a specific team), so he may choose to redirect to the proper resource in these cases. ------Nick says in a way you’re asking yourself how to get rid of each request to focus on the work you are uniquely suited to handle. ---People who decrease their scope and become more specialized may be fearful of not being able to return to a more generalized role. ------Max says try to find someone to eventually take over your specialty to allow yourself to go and do something else. ------If you are feeling too specialized, Max would suggest not staying in the role for too long. ------Max gives the example of COBOL programmers who decided not to learn anything else. There are some programming jobs focused on COBOL today but not many. And this path certainly does not have a career ladder associated with it. ---------Perhaps a better path would have been seeing continued work in this area as an eventual dead end. Max would encourage pushing your manager to help you find a different or more expansive role, and if the manager cannot help, you can certainly seek out something on your own that expands your technical breadth. 12:38 – Individual Contributors and Managers -------------------------------------------- ---Upon reaching the top levels of individual contributor in a company, does make see most people become people leaders? What does Max think about moving into people leadership? ------Max would prefer to stay an individual contributor despite having been a manager in some of his past experience (like when he ran the consulting firm). ------Being an individual contributor and being a manager are very different roles according to Max. ------As a manager, Max is very meticulous about the operational details of a team. He might be focused on spreadsheets, logs, or some type of bug tracking system. ---------Max would work closely with project managers and know the details of the work being done by his team. He would work to get to know his people and understand anything in their personal lives which might impact their work. ---------Though Max would be obsessed with delivering outcomes, he would think even more about his employees and ensuring they are not sacrificing overall wellbeing in favor of outcomes. ------As an individual contributor, Max needs focus time. ---------He may be designing something, reviewing something writing code, or in a long technical conversation about a specific topic. ---------Max could be switching back and forth between 4 different things, for example. He would be paying more attention to specific sets of technologies and results than to specific people. ---------Though Max is good at being a manager, it does not make him feel fulfilled. ------“Would you rather make people or technology?..What are you building? What would you rather build? Would you rather build other people, or would you rather build technology? And if you’d rather build technology your answer is an IC. And if you prefer building other people your answer is manager.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on the decision between individual contributor and manager ---------The answer to the above can change and can even change multiple times. Max has seen people at his level and above switch back and forth between individual contributor and manager and vice versa. ---------“There’s a whole craft of being a manager, especially being an engineering manager. There’s a whole craft of being a great engineering manager… To be truly stellar at it is actually rare. So you can build up your skills just in that area…and it can be just as rewarding to see the people and the teams that you’ve created create something amazing as it is to create something amazing directly.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ---Would a logical lateral move for a principal role be something in product management? ------Max says this depends on where you are in the organization. ------In developer infrastructure where Max works, usually there are no product managers. In fact, Max might steer the potential product manager away from infrastructure. ---------Engineers who work on infrastructure and build tools for it generally only want to listen to other engineers. ------If you’re working on a product specifically, you as a product manager are working tightly with the engineering manager to deliver a product together. 17:19 – Developer Productivity ------------------------------ ---Max says it is very common for an organization to not have defined productivity at all even after building an organization around it. ------At LinkedIn productivity is defined as engineers being efficient and effective. Happiness is added at the end to get developer productivity and happiness. ------Efficient could mean doing something in the least amount of time possible or as frequently as possible (i.e. remove the friction). Effective means getting the results desired. ---What made Max want to focus in this area? ------“The thing that I care about as a software engineer is helping other software engineers be better software engineers.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ------Max was the technical lead at Google of YouTube for the Xbox 360 (one of the first ways to watch YouTube on a television). The product was very successful, and there were a number of cool technical things done on that project. ------While the product was wildly successful, after a year or so Max became very bored. ------Some people are product engineers and some are infrastructure engineers. It depends on whether you want to help users or other software engineers. ------Max’s passions and interests keep drawing him toward helping other software engineers (and thus the infrastructure focus). ------At Google, when Max was bored he told his manager that he wanted a different job. Max’s manager connected him with the head of developer productivity for YouTube. This person needed someone to help sort out certain problems, and Max jumped all over it. ------“I say just do the thing you’re going to do. What happens is if you do this thing, eventually an opportunity will show up. And when you’re like, ‘I can do that opportunity,’ people will believe you because you’ll have a pedigree of having done the thing.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ------Nick calls this out as relatable experience (experience that prepares you for a job you don’t have yet) and that it is something we don’t often know how to leverage properly when updating LinkedIn profiles, in writing resumes, or in interviews. ---------Max says he just tells stories in interviews, not claiming to be an expert in relatable experience. ---------Nick says you get the story by doing something and then documenting your work and accomplishments. ---------Max says he tends to struggle with documenting his work and usually has to go back to look at his calendar and read through a number of e-mails to get the necessary information for a performance review. 21:25 – Evaluating What’s Next ------------------------------ ---To decide what we might do next, Max says we should first decide if we want to keep doing what we are doing. ------“It’s very easy to get caught up in something comfortable.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, on deciding what to do next ------Max would encourage us to continually evaluate our answers to the questions below. ---------Is the work I’m doing still making an impact? ---------Does the work I am doing require that I do it, or could it be handed off to someone else? ---------If I stop the work I am doing, would anything bad happen to the company? ------“Even if you’re comfortable. Even if you think your job is totally secure, eventually, somebody else will figure out the same answers that you have about your work.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ---------Max has seen people who were in roles that seemed safe but produced very little impact get bad performance reviews and then get fired. ---------If your boss tells you the work you are doing doesn’t make any sense or doesn’t seem valuable, ask for their help to correct the problem. If you continue to focus on work that isn’t perceived as valuable, that is a very good way to lose your job. ---------We need to be honest with ourselves about the importance of the work we are doing in present time and be constantly evaluating this. ---Max would also consider the following questions to gauge interest and capability for a new endeavor. ------Do I think the problem is important to solve? ------Am I interested in solving the problem? Am I interested enough in it to do a good job? ------Will I have the resources I need to accomplish this? ---------Max says you should never take a project that is not funded. He has seen many individual contributors destroy their career by taking unfunded projects without the proper resources to deliver any results. ---------Resources include people to help (engineers, project managers), hardware / software needed, and possibly agreement from other teams to do the work. Do your research on the resources at your disposal before taking a job! ------Do I think I’m capable of doing the job? ---“When all those things are true and I have to compare them, the question is ‘which one has the most important long term impact for the company?’ Sometimes there are things that have more short term impact… I really want to do the thing that has the best long-term outcome.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ------If Max had to choose between delivering something really cool in a few months and changing the company in 3 years, he would prefer to change the company over the longer term. ------Taking a project that has a big impact in 3 months might mean you only maintain the project for the foreseeable future with very little additional impact and no clear exit plan to work on something else. ---Nick feels like this is a demonstration of the ability to understand the scope and time horizon of value delivery before taking on a project. ------As you think about moving up the engineering career ladder, ask yourself “how many people would I be comfortable leading toward a goal over how long?” ---------Max’s answer, for example, is thousands to tens of thousands over several years. ---------“Every person needs to think about that answer for themselves because as much as you might want that promotion, if you get there and you can’t do it, it’s going to be a miserable experience.” – Max Kanat-Alexander ------Being a number 2 or right hand of someone at Max’s level would still give someone a very large scope. Most of the people Max relies on directly to lead significant parts of a project are senior staff level engineers. ---------“Because even parts of that problem have such a significant scope that they require somebody who understands how to handle that problem, or they still affect the same number of people over the same time horizon but they are only one piece of technology as an example.” – Max Kanat-Alexander, explaining the concept of scope as it relates to a project ---------Max gives the example of leading a project to update all dependencies across all code repositories at LinkedIn. One piece of this is the dependency infrastructure, and Max mentions a senior staff engineer is in charge of this. But that is only one piece of the greater project as there are elements in addition to just the infrastructure that need handling. ---------The scope differences described above are analogous to the difference in a plumber or electrician for a house and a general contractor. ---To follow up with Max on this discussion… ------Send him a message on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/mkanat/) ------E-mail him using the contact form on his blog [Code Simplicity] (https://www.codesimplicity.com/contact/) ------Follow Max on Twitter [@mkanat] (https://twitter.com/mkanat) Mentioned in the Outro ---------------------- ---Remember you are not locked into a career as an individual contributor or a people leader forever. Your preference can change. If you need more advice on how to make that decision, check out these episodes as a small sampling of our back catalog: ------ [Episode 244 – An Array of Decision Points with Tim Crawford (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/an-array-of-decision-points-with-tim-crawford-2-2/) ------ [Episode 202 – Having Some Career Zigzags with Yvette Edwards (2/2)] (https://nerd-journey.com/having-some-career-zigzags-with-yvette-edwards-2-2/) ---To the people managers listening, please let your people know if the work they are doing is not valuable, and individual contributors should ask for guidance if they aren’t sure if the work they are doing is valuable. ---Being part of something successful does not mean it will be the most interesting thing we’ve ever worked on. We should keep track of our interest level over time and do what we can within our control to keep the work interesting. Don’t let yourself get to the point of performing poorly or no longer caring to take action! ---If you would like a free copy of Max’s book, Code Simplicity, you can get one [here] (https://www.codesimplicity.com/book/) . Contact the Hosts ----------------- ---The hosts of Nerd Journey are John White and Nick Korte. ------E-mail: [nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com] (mailto:nerdjourneypodcast@gmail.com) ------DM us on Twitter/X [@NerdJourney] (https://twitter.com/NerdJourney) ------Connect with John on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/vjourneyman/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@vJourneyman] (https://twitter.com/vJourneyman) ---Connect with Nick on [LinkedIn] (https://www.linkedin.com/in/nickkortenetworknerd/) or DM him on Twitter/X [@NetworkNerd_] (https://twitter.com/Networknerd_) ... Read more

06 Aug 2024

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06 Aug 2024

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Scope Creep: Evaluating Impact in Career Decisions as a Principal Engineer with Max Kanat-Alexander ...