<a target="_blank" href="https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/915097/open_sms">Send us a text</a>On Inside Geneva this week, we take a step back from the breaking news and talk to the authors of two books about the better side of humanity.“The defence of human rights is not a matter of holding a candle and singing Kumbaya. The defence of human rights is about playing hardball. It's about putting pressure on governments, making them realise that repression isn't paying because the consequences are so severe,” says Kenneth Roth, author of Righting Wrongs.Those consequences apply to violations of the laws of war – laws that are much stricter than you might think.“One can speak about the leaders of a war of aggression as having individual criminal responsibility. If it’s illegal for the leader, maybe it’s illegal also for the soldiers who participate in it. And maybe it’s a violation not just to kill civilians on the other side, but Ukrainian soldiers,” continues Andrew Clapham, author of War.Defending human rights doesn’t always make you popular.“I made sure that Human Rights Watch was bringing facts to the table that the governments didn’t know. That was part of my job. My father fled the Nazis as a young boy. I grew up Jewish. I am Jewish. So I feel a certain responsibility to take on not just the duty of criticising Israeli abuses, but also to address the misuse of anti-Semitism,” says Roth.And while some governments are pushing back, international law is robust.“You might think that by changing the lawyers or creating facts on the ground, you’re going to get away with it. But those war crimes allegations stick to you for life. There’s no statute of limitations on war crimes, and you could easily find yourself prosecuted in ten or 20 years’ time,” says Clapham.Join host Imogen Foulkes for in-depth interviews on two thought-provoking books.Get in touch! <ul> <li>Email us at <a href='mailto:insidegeneva@swissinfo.ch'>insidegeneva@swissinfo.ch</a> </li> <li>Twitter: @ImogenFoulkes and @swissinfo_en</li> </ul> Thank you for listening! If you like what we do, please leave a review or subscribe to our newsletter. For more stories on the<a href='https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/topic/international-geneva/'> international Geneva </a>please visit <a href='https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/'>www.swissinfo.ch/</a> Host: <a href='https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/author/imogen-foulkes/'>Imogen Foulkes </a>Production assitant: <a href='https://www.linkedin.com/in/clairemarie4ba1ab16a/'>Claire-Marie Germain</a> Distribution: <a href='https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/author/sara-pasino/'>Sara Pasino</a> Marketing: <a href='https://www.linkedin.com/in/xin-zhang-70327481/'>Xin Zhang</a>

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