Gary and Stephen talk about creativity, recovery, getting fired, and holding grudges. They also get outside and play basketball, which is a big part of how Gary stays well. If you'd like to see the video version of Better in Person, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@Freakonomics" rel="noopener noreferrer">watch it on YouTube</a> or<a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/better-in-person-with-stephen-dubner/id6789198595" rel="noopener noreferrer"> Apple Podcasts</a>. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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