I’m opposed to this war. The Trump administration did not consult the American public or try to persuade Congress before authorizing the strikes on Iran. I don’t think the administration is prepared for what the strikes might unleash.
But I wanted to try to understand President Trump’s decisions from the perspective of somebody much friendlier to his foreign policy. Nadia Schadlow is a senior fellow at the Hudson Institute and served as a deputy national security adviser during Trump’s first term. She led the drafting and publication of the 2017 National Security Strategy of the United States.
In this conversation, Schadlow gives the conservative case for war with Iran, and for attacking without first building support in Congress or with the public. And I ask her how she squares Trump the candidate, who ran on a promise of not starting new wars, with the Trump of today, who’s deposed two heads of state since the start of 2026, and now says he won’t rule out boots on the ground in Iran. Is there a consistent worldview here? Or did Trump change?
Mentioned:
“<a href="https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/2025-National-Security-Strategy.pdf" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">National Security Strategy of the United States of America</a>”
<a href="https://press.georgetown.edu/Book/War-and-the-Art-of-Governance" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">War and the Art of Governance</a> by Nadia Schadlow
“<a href="https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/globalist-delusion-nadia-schadlow" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Globalist Delusion</a>” by Nadia Schadlow
“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2026/03/03/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-ben-rhodes.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Great Lie of War</a>” with Ben Rhodes on “The Ezra Klein Show”
Book Recommendations:
<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/robert-b-zoellick/america-in-the-world/9781538712368/?lens=twelve" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">America in the World</a> by Robert B. Zoellick
<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/hernando-de-soto/the-mystery-of-capital/9780465016150/?lens=basic-books" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Mystery of Capital</a> by Hernando De Soto
<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/617503/the-peacemaker-by-william-inboden/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Peacemaker</a> by William Inboden
<a href="https://www.harpercollins.com/products/demon-copperhead-barbara-kingsolver?variant=40073146204194" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Demon Copperhead</a> by Barbara Kingsolver
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Annie Galvin. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Mary Marge Locker and Kate Sinclair. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher">https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher</a>. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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