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For the first time on TOE, I sit down with professors Anil Seth and Michael Levin to test the brain-as-computer metaphor and whether algorithms can ever capture life/mind. Anil argues the “software vs. hardware” split is a blinding metaphor—consciousness may be bound to living substrate—while Michael counters that machines can tap the same platonic space biology does. We tour their radical lab work—xenobots, compositional agents, and interfaces that bind unlike parts—and probe psychophysics in strange new beings, “islands of awareness,” and what Levin’s bubble-sort “side quests” imply for reading LLM outputs. Anil brings information theory and Granger causality into the mix to rethink emergence and scale—not just computation. Along the way: alignment, agency, and how to ask better scientific questions. If you’re into AI/consciousness, evolution without programming, or whether silicon could ever feel—this one’s for you.


Timestamps:
- 00:00 - Anil Seth & Michael Levin: Islands of Consciousness & Xenobots
- 08:24 - Substrate Dependence: Why Biology Isn't Just 'Wetware'
- 13:13 - Beyond Algorithms: Do Machines Tap Into a 'Platonic Space'?
- 21:46 - The Ghost in the Algorithm: Emergent Agency in Bubble Sort
- 29:26 - Degeneracy: The Biological Principle AI is Missing
- 36:34 - The Multiplicity of Agency: Are Your Cells Conscious?
- 43:24 - Unconscious Processing or Inaccessible Consciousness? The Split-Brain Problem
- 49:32 - The Ultimate Experiment to Decode Consciousness
- 57:31 - A Counter-Intuitive Discovery: Consciousness is *Less* Emergent
- 1:03:39 - Psychedelics, LLMs, and the Frontiers of Surprise Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://megaphone.fm/adchoices">megaphone.fm/adchoices</a>

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