What if the biggest risk in your business isn’t building the product but realizing no one wants it? In this Unlearn episode, I’m joined by <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/alistaircroll/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Alistair Croll</a>, technologist, entrepreneur, and bestselling author of <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Analytics-Better-Startup-Faster/dp/1449335675" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Lean Analytics</a>, for a candid and clever conversation on rethinking product development, marketing, and demand generation.Alistair’s work focuses on data-driven innovation and human behavior. He co-authored <a href="https://justevilenough.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Just Evil Enough: The Subversive Marketing Handbook</a>, a playbook for bending the rules to win in the attention economy. He has chaired global tech conferences like O’Reilly’s Strata and currently leads<a href="https://startupfestival.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank"> Startupfest</a>, where he helps founders turn clever ideas into competitive advantage.Known for blending insight with humor, Alistair unpacks why subversive creativity, not perfection, often wins. From the “fluency equation” to Burger King’s clever customer acquisition tactics, he reveals how unconventional strategies generate meaningful traction. This episode explores the science of subversive marketing, reframes how we think about product launch risk, and dives into the mindset shifts leaders need to stay relevant in the AI era.<h2>Key Takeaways</h2><ul><li>Start with Attention, Not Execution: The first job is proving demand, not building features.</li><li>The Fluency Equation: Adoption is driven by desire, but also requires lowering inexperience, complexity, and perceived consequence.</li><li>Redefine Product-Market Fit: Medium fit — how people find, try, and pay — is just as important as what you offer.</li><li>Reverse Your GTM Strategy: Work backward from demand instead of forward from the product.</li></ul> <h2>Additional Insights</h2><ul><li>Test Before You Build: Demand validation should come before development or scaling.</li><li>Have a Disagreement with the World: Bold startups are born from challenging norms, not just meeting expectations.</li><li>Use Familiar Behaviors to Drive Adoption: Anchoring new tools to existing habits lowers friction and boosts engagement.</li><li>Practice Ethical Persuasion: Subversive tactics work best when they respect users and build long-term trust.</li></ul> <h2>Episode Highlights:</h2>00:00 – Episode RecapAlistair reframes startup risk with a clever hand-raising test: building isn’t the danger, indifference is.03:16 – The Beach-Read Business BookWhy Just Evil Enough was built to entertain and educate, and how surprise fuels learning.07:30 – The Real Startup RiskMost teams focus on building because it feels safe. But the real risk is customer indifference.08:41 – Subversive Marketing in ActionThe Whopper Detour: How Burger King used playful tactics to achieve strategic goals.13:20 – The Fluency Equation ExplainedA new way to understand user hesitation and remove behavioral friction.19:14 – AI, Fluency, and Leadership GapsWhy executives aren’t using AI, even when they know they should.26:00 – Decision-Making Matrix for InnovationA two-by-two framework to help teams run smarter experiments with lower risk.31:01 – The Fourth MiscapitalizationWhy companies are still over-investing in engineering in an AI-native era.35:55 – How to Start with Demand FirstReal-world examples of flipping the build-first model by validating before committing.39:14 – The Subversive MindsetDisagreeability, creative risk, and how to spot the systems you're trapped inside.41:36 – Ethical PersuasionHow to avoid crossing the line from clever to manipulative.Useful Resources:<ul><li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/alistaircroll/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Alistair Croll on LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="https://justevilenough.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Just Evil Enough</a> by Alistair Croll & Emily Ross</li><li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lean-Analytics-Better-Startup-Faster/dp/1449335675" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Lean Analytics</a> by Alistair Croll & Ben Yoskovitz</li><li><a href="https://barryoreilly.com/explore/podcast/redefining-traditional-marketing/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Unlearn Episode with Emily Ross&nbsp;</a></li><li><a href="https://startupfestival.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Startupfest</a></li><li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Never-Split-Difference-audiobook/dp/B01COR1GM2/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=142292971629&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.yFMj6BEDF71k4OPz6fInRvsjqh7OmFu0J03kM_-CMos6RF7HQ28TRxjRiDXnH5xShriwHML9tZB8_IXA_MYiTZ_BfMWbzfwwVBgDC-3BBRSCh3J0fAcD8TmXRylMqgqdCuEuqzcW1XZOLxTuUPg_Z4jCU4V0URnl-cp4uFtay48PA2laaPlMHF3enx8cnF93uA6w_u3tJZcPa-2-De_W46lbCQqGxvby2kHZ9lxyGIM.ghXdsHSczocWewPQvMWfhbFbzDhfBf69Jl-S8sXZb3Y&dib_tag=se&hvadid=673570642982&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9061354&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=2222122781799975406&hvtargid=kwd-299226560115&hydadcr=21379_13509376&keywords=never+split+the+difference&mcid=f387c257b0d032f686390d2b652e5db0&qid=1751352781&sr=8-1" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Never Split the Difference</a> by Chris Voss</li><li><a href="https://www.amazon.com/How-Minds-Change-Surprising-Persuasion/dp/B094RJGCRH/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3JJH5CL0EG2W3&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.1PJ_8X1J2xtOU7e226JCFRPmVWEoairArJqpxdOakULGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.LOErS7l94UJ6myiwIHPiDErr27sXz0JlBU2ZCteMdG0&dib_tag=se&keywords=How+Minds+Change&qid=1751352817&s=audible&sprefix=how+minds+change%2Caudible%2C570&sr=1-1" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">How Minds Change</a> by David McRaney</li></ul> Follow the Host:<ul><li>LinkedIn: <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.linkedin.com/in/barryoreilly</a>&nbsp;</li><li>Personal site: <a href="https://barryoreilly.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://barryoreilly.com</a>&nbsp;</li><li>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/barryoreillyauthor/</a>&nbsp;</li><li>Twitter: <a href="https://x.com/barryoreilly" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://x.com/barryoreilly</a>&nbsp;</li><li>Instagram: <a href="https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.instagram.com/barryoreilly/</a>&nbsp;</li><li>Email: <a href="mailto:hello@barryoreilly.com" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">hello@barryoreilly.com</a></li></ul>

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