My guest today is <a href="https://www.taniadejong.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Tania de Jong</a>, co-founder of <a href="https://mindmedicineaustralia.org.au/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mind Medicine Australia</a>. Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.This episode is brought to you by:<ul><li><a href="https://prolonlife.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">ProLon</a> science-backed Fasting Mimicking Diet that helps activate cellular renewal through fasting, while still eating nourishing meals: <a href="https://prolonlife.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://prolonlife.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="https://livemomentous.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Momentous</a> high-quality creatine for cognitive and muscular support: <a href="https://LivemoMentous.com/Tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://LiveMomentous.com/Tim</a></li><li><a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">AG1</a> all-in-one nutritional supplement: <a href="https://drinkag1.com/tim" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">DrinkAG1.com/Tim</a></li></ul>Timestamps[00:00:00] Intro from Tim.[00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life.[00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it.[00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia.[00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application.[00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians.[00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room.[00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story.[00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators.[00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough.[00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients.[00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.[00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise.[00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.[00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board.[01:01:39] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control.[01:10:01] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.[01:12:02] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.[01:14:22] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience advocacy requires.[01:23:38] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.[01:25:51] Getting through to regulators and pushing for end-of-life access.[01:28:27] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.[01:31:38] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the bill.[01:35:07] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more affordable?[01:38:46] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”[01:43:14] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.[01:47:46] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?[01:49:04] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try another door.[01:54:22] Supporting patients and training the next wave of clinicians.[01:57:51] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking each other home.[02:01:35] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and simply asking for help.Timeline:<ul><li>February 2, 2015: Michael Pollan publishes “<a href="https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/09/trip-treatment" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Trip Treatment</a>” in The New Yorker, which is the article Tania credits with setting her journey in motion.</li><li>March 21, 2015: Tim releases his James Fadiman interview, “<a href="https://tim.blog/2015/03/21/james-fadiman/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide</a>” (#66). Its show notes link to “The Trip Treatment.”</li><li>January 15, 2016: In 5-Bullet Friday, Tim announces support for Johns Hopkins’ psilocybin research and a personal commitment of at least $100,000 toward psychedelic research that year.</li><li>2016: Tania and Peter travel to the Netherlands for their first guided psilocybin experience. <a href="https://www.taniadejong.com/wp-content/uploads/Songs-for-Psychedelics-A-Magic-Mushroom-Adventure-Press-Release-2021.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>2017–2019: UCSF conducts the psilocybin-assisted group-therapy study involving long-term AIDS survivors that Tim helped support. <a href="https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7599297/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>May 6, 2018: Michael Pollan joins Tim for “Exploring the New Science of Psychedelics” (#313), discussing his forthcoming book (<a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0735224153?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">How to Change Your Mind</a>).</li><li>May 15, 2018: Pollan’s <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/0735224153?tag=offsitoftimfe-20" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">How to Change Your Mind</a> is published.</li><li>February 13, 2019: Tania and Peter publicly launch <a href="https://mindmedicineaustralia.org.au/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Mind Medicine Australia</a>. <a href="https://mindmedicineaustralia.org.au/understanding/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>2020–2022: MMA applies to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin, faces rejection, and submits new applications in March 2022. <a href="https://mindmedicineaustralia.org.au/wp-content/uploads/Media-Alert_MMA-response-to-Interim-Decision-2022-Release_FINAL_261022.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>November 21, 2022: David Nutt presents to Australia’s medicines regulator, the TGA, supporting the case for therapeutic access. <a href="https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/2023-02/notice-of-final-decision-to-amend-or-not-amend-the-current-poisons-standard-june-2022-acms-38-psilocybine-and-mdma.pdf" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>February 3, 2023: The TGA announces restricted prescribing access to MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression, effective July 1, 2023. <a href="https://www.tga.gov.au/news/media-releases/change-classification-psilocybin-and-mdma-enable-prescribing-authorised-psychiatrists" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li><li>January 2024: Patients begin receiving treatment under the new prescribing program. <a href="https://mindmedicineaustralia.org.au/treatments/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">(Source)</a></li></ul>*For show notes and past guests on <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast/?utm_source=podcast&utm_medium=podcast&utm_campaign=podcast-description" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast</a>.For deals from sponsors of <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">The Tim Ferriss Show</a>, please visit <a href="https://tim.blog/podcast-sponsors" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/podcast-sponsors</a>Sign up for Tim’s email newsletter (5-Bullet Friday) at <a href="https://go.tim.blog/5-bullet-friday-1/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/friday</a>.For transcripts of episodes, go to <a href="https://tim.blog/transcripts" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/transcripts</a>.Discover Tim’s books: <a href="https://tim.blog/books" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">tim.blog/books</a>.Follow Tim:Twitter: <a href="https://twitter.com/tferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">twitter.com/tferriss</a>&nbsp;Instagram: <a href="https://instagram.com/timferriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">instagram.com/timferriss</a>YouTube: <a href="https://www.youtube.com/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">youtube.com/timferriss</a>Facebook: <a href="https://www.facebook.com/TimFerriss/" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">facebook.com/timferriss</a>&nbsp;LinkedIn: <a href="http://linkedin.com/in/timferriss" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">linkedin.com/in/timferriss</a>See Privacy Policy at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy</a> and California Privacy Notice at <a href="https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info</a>.

Podurama

Home

Trending

Personal

Your Podcasts

New Episodes

My Files

Favourite Episodes

Tags (Folders)

Recently Played

Bookmarks

Followed Playlists

#883: How to Legalize Medical Psychedelics in Your Country — Tania de Jong on The Playbook Behind Australia's World-First Breakthrough

The Tim Ferriss Show (via Backfeed)

AI Chapters

AI Insights

Reviews