The idea that white people — and white men in particular — face discrimination has become something of an obsession on the American right.
It’s a view that my guest this week shares. Jeremy Carl was nominated to a State Department post by the Trump administration, which sparked a lot of controversy. Carl is the author of “The Unprotected Class,” in which he makes the case that white Americans are in danger of becoming “second-class citizens.” 
I wanted to know what he thinks constitutes anti-white discrimination and whether focusing on it inevitably leads to white nationalism. After we taped this interview, Carl withdrew his nomination, acknowledging that he lacked enough support to be confirmed.
<ul>
 <li>0:00 - Intro</li>
 <li>01:59 - Jeremy Carl’s trajectory and State Department Nomination</li>
 <li>05:24 - The Civil Rights Act and rise of anti-white Discrimination</li>
 <li>12:20 - The impact of immigration on white Americans</li>
 <li>24:53 - The "radicalization" of D.E.I.</li>
 <li>37:37 - Carl’s provocative language and controversial tweets</li>
 <li>51:06 - “White culture” vs. “civic nationalism”</li>
 <li>01:01:00 - The fours pillars of “Americanness”</li>
</ul>
(A full transcript of this episode is available on the Times website.)
Thoughts? Email us at interestingtimes@nytimes.com. Please subscribe to our YouTube Channel, <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@InterestingTimesNYT" rel="noopener noreferrer">Interesting Times with Ross Douthat</a>.
<blockquote>Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher">https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher</a>. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app.</blockquote> Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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