What is the theological meaning of American history? In this episode, American church historian Grant Wacker joins Mark Labberton to explore the theological dimensions of American history, the legacy of Billy Graham, and the evolving face of evangelicalism. Wacker reflects on his Pentecostal upbringing, his formation as a historian, and his conviction that faith and scholarship must speak honestly to one another. Together they trace how religion has both shaped and distorted American life—from the enduring wound of slavery to the reformist spirit woven through its history. Wacker, now in his eighties, offers his perspective on evangelicalism’s past, present, and global future. Episode Highlights <ol> <li>“Religion has always been at the forefront of rationalizing and making enslavement seem perfectly normal—perfectly natural. It’s just the order of things.”</li> <li>“Many of the very finest religious historians are not believers—and they do superb work in understanding where religion lies.”</li> <li>“I don't think there is Christian nationalism out there. What there is is that there is nationalism that draws on Christian categories to legitimate itself.”</li> <li>“I don’t think what we’re looking at is a religious movement. We’re looking at a political movement that uses religious categories.”</li> <li>“We should write about others the way we wish they would write about us.”</li> <li>“You Americans are always asking the Holy Spirit to bring revival. What you ought to be doing is asking the Holy Spirit to open your eyes to the revival that is already flourishing.”</li> </ol> Helpful Links and Resources <ul> <li>America’s Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation by Grant Wacker — <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Pastor-Graham-Shaping-Nation/dp/0674052188"> https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Pastor-Graham-Shaping-Nation/dp/0674052188</a></li> <li>Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture by Grant Wacker — <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Below-Pentecostals-American-Culture/dp/0674011287"> https://www.amazon.com/Heaven-Below-Pentecostals-American-Culture/dp/0674011287</a></li> <li>One Soul at a Time: The Story of Billy Graham by Grant Wacker — <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/One-Soul-Time-Religious-Biography/dp/0802885500/"> https://www.amazon.com/One-Soul-Time-Religious-Biography/dp/0802885500/</a></li> <li>Mark Noll’s The Civil War as a Theological Crisis — <a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Crisis-Steven-Janice-Lectures/dp/1469621819"> https://www.amazon.com/Theological-Crisis-Steven-Janice-Lectures/dp/1469621819</a></li> <li>Religion in American Life: A Short History — ****<a href= "https://www.amazon.com/Religion-American-Life-Short-History/dp/0199832692/">https://www.amazon.com/Religion-American-Life-Short-History/dp/0199832692/</a></li> </ul> About Grant Wacker Grant Wacker is the Gilbert T. Rowe Distinguished Professor Emeritus of Christian History at Duke Divinity School. A leading scholar of American religious history, he is the author of numerous books including Heaven Below: Early Pentecostals and American Culture and America’s Pastor: Billy Graham and the Shaping of a Nation. His research has helped shape modern understanding of American evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, and the intersection of faith and culture. Show Notes <ul> <li>Wacker’s path to the study of history through mentorship at Harvard Divinity School and a fascination with theology’s relationship to historical reality</li> <li>He distinguishes between observing “religion operating in history” and perceiving “the divine hand,” emphasizing the tension between secular and theological approaches to the past.</li> <li>Four major contexts that define the American story: geography, capitalism, immigration, and race</li> <li>Eleven domains where the power of religion—and possibly divine influence—can be seen, from colonization and enslavement to revivalism and reform.</li> <li>“We are a people of plenty—prosperous partly because of the accident of geography.”</li> <li>Reformed and Wesleyan theology as twin engines shaping the nation’s moral and social imagination.</li> <li>Humility as “at the heart of Reformed theology: we don’t run our lives; something else is running the show.”</li> <li>Wesleyan theology, by contrast, stresses human enablement and responsibility: “If we are able to do it, we are responsible for doing it.”</li> <li>Catholic contributions to the American story, especially the richness of liturgy and the continuity of two thousand years of history</li> <li>Reflections on racial sin as a “permanent wound,” calling religion both complicit in and necessary for confronting slavery’s legacy</li> <li>Mark Noll’s The Civil War as a Theological Crisis, highlighting how both sides invoked Scripture without self-awareness or self-critique</li> <li>“Religion has always been implicated in making enslavement seem natural—as natural as breathing.”</li> <li>Describes evangelicalism’s deep roots in pietism and revivalism, its mainstream dominance by the late nineteenth century, and its later fragmentation.</li> <li>“Evangelicalism became the main line—it was the standard way Protestantism operated.”</li> <li>Outlines the modern trifurcation: fundamentalists, liberals, and a centrist evangelical river that remains influential.</li> <li>“Christian nationalism” is largely a political, not religious, phenomenon: nationalism using Christian categories to legitimize itself.</li> <li>“Religion is rarely an independent variable in determining how people vote.”</li> <li>Richard Bushman (paraphrase):  Have we written about [the subjects of academic history] as fairly and honestly as we can, or have we distorted their story in order to make ourselves look good?</li> <li>A call for fairness in historical judgment: “Write about them the way you wish they would write about you.”</li> <li>Prediction: Evangelicalism’s future lies “south of the equator”—in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.</li> <li>Quotes a Jesuit: “Americans keep asking for revival; they should ask to see the revival that’s already happening.”</li> <li>On Christian nationalism: “The question is not whether religion and politics collude—they always have—but whether we can be self-conscious and humble about it.”</li> <li>Identifies power, prosperity, and digital speed as the toxic combination shaping contemporary polarization.</li> <li>“Speed is a narcotic for humans—we want to be connected now.”</li> <li>Reflects on Billy Graham’s unifying role and his progressive evolution on race and nuclear disarmament: “He became increasingly moderate, increasingly inclusive.”</li> <li>Notes Graham’s three conversions—to Christ, to racial justice, and to peace.</li> <li>“The United States and the Soviet Union are like two little boys in a bathtub filled with gasoline, playing with matches.”</li> <li>On teaching and legacy: “My students are earnest—they want to do well for the world they live in.”</li> <li>“Whatever good has come—it’s a gift, not earned.”</li> <li>Humility, humor, and grace as rare marks of faith and scholarship integrated</li> </ul> Production Credits Conversing is produced and distributed in partnership with Comment magazine and Fuller Seminary.

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