What happens when two co-CEOs, one who grew up in a United Nations compound in Nigeria as the son of the world's most famous corn scientist, and one who was told in seventh grade by a teacher that she was "just not that smart," get raided at 6:00 a.m. by armed FBI agents in front of their children, spend 32 months and 10 million pages of discovery inside a federal indictment where the government's own statistics say 98% of defendants give up and less than 1% who fight ever win, and walk out fully acquitted four months before recording this conversation?You discover what actually holds a partnership, a company, and a marriage together when every mental model you have about the justice system, power, and who wears the white hats shatters at once.Charlie Kim and Meghan Messenger are the co-CEOs of Next Jump, the company Harvard placed in front of the US military as a model for human development.&nbsp;Charlie fundraised the original $45 million from exactly 100 individual investors, one meeting at a time, with a stutter that disappeared mid-process because, he believed at the time, God fixed it so he could help his father end world hunger. Meghan joined as a 1998 intern and became his co-CEO despite (in her words) growing up as the dumb twin of her identical sister Erin.In this episode, Dov sits down in person with Charlie and Meghan for a conversation that runs from the operating equation underneath their entire company (humility plus confidence, better me plus better you equals better us), to the 32-month DOJ trial that nearly destroyed them, to the specific leadership distinction that saved them and that most CEOs get wrong. It is the difference between playing to win and playing not to lose.&nbsp;In this extended episode, Charlie and Meghan will tell you their lawyers, some of the best in the world, were wired for the second one, and it took the co-CEOs giving those lawyers permission to fight before the case turned.Then Dov asks the question the leadership audience has been waiting for. What is the single most common thing high-performing leaders carry underneath their success that they have never said out loud?&nbsp;Meghan's answer is one sentence. Charlie's follow-up phrase, the space to feel weak, is the one most listeners will write down.Inside this conversation:<ul><li>The seventh-grade teacher who told Meghan's mother the actual sentence, "Mrs. Lombardi, it's because Meghan's just not that smart," and the identity Meghan built in response</li><li>The moment Charlie's stutter disappeared in the middle of pitching investor number 400-something, and the spiritual reframe that turned the healing into a mission</li><li>The $1,000 check Meghan refused after 9/11, and the $10,000 in cash on the Amtrak train two years later with one condition attached</li><li>The 6:00 a.m. armed FBI raid on May 31, 2024, in front of Charlie's 14-year-old son and 9-year-old daughter, and the moment they realized the US government has no interest in the truth</li><li>The 50 character traits Charlie and Meghan boiled down to 10, then to 5, and finally to 2 (humility and confidence), and why any leader out of balance on either side fails predictably</li><li>The military line Charlie says explains their entire operating model: mission first, people always</li><li>LBR: light, break, revisit — the three-word protocol Charlie and Meghan use for every disagreement, and why the answer is almost never A or B</li></ul>If you came here for a comfortable leadership conversation, this is the wrong podcast. If you came because you have been quietly wondering whether the story you are telling yourself about who you have to be as a leader is actually a story about playing not to lose, press play.Connect with Charlie Kim and Meghan Messenger:<ul><li>Company: <a href="https://nextjump.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://nextjump.com</a></li><li>Charlie on X: @charliekim</li><li>Meghan on Instagram: @meghanmessenger</li><li>Weekly in-person community events every Thursday in New York City</li></ul>Connect with Dov Baron:<ul><li><a href="https://dovbaron.com/" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://dovbaron.com</a></li><li><a href="mailto:dov@dovbaron.com" rel="noopener noreferrer">dov@dovbaron.com</a></li></ul>Rate, review, and send this episode to the co-founder, co-CEO, or leadership partner in your life who has stopped fighting for the mission because it got hard. That is how the algorithm finds the people who most need to hear that only 2% ever fight, and only 1% of those ever win.
Connect with Dov Baron:<ul><li><a href="https://dovbaron.com/">https://DovBaron.com</a></li><li><a href="mailto:dov@dovbaron.com">dov@dovbaron.com</a></li></ul>Rate, review, and send this episode to the most thoughtful builder you know. That is how the algorithm finds the people who still ask why. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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Charlie Kim & Meghan Messenger: The Co-CEOs the DOJ Couldn't Break

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