Welcome back to Snafu with Robin Zander.

In this episode, I’m talking with Bobby Podesta, longtime Pixar animator and storyteller.

We dig into why storytelling and art matter, and why finding your own voice is more important than copying anyone else.

Bobby opens up about his journey as an artist, the imposter syndrome he’s faced, and how he learned to create art in a style that’s truly his.

We talk about how he turned a written novel into a graphic novel, translating dialogue and descriptions into illustrations along the way.

He shares lessons from his college design teacher about noticing the art all around us—not just in museums or galleries.

We also explore how design and storytelling balance function and emotion, in ways you might not even realize in everyday life.

Bobby’s story shows that creativity isn’t about perfection – it’s about showing up and being authentic.

He gives a fresh perspective on how storytelling shapes the way we see the world and connect with others.

This episode is full of insights for anyone who cares about art, design, and telling stories that matter.

00:00 Start 03:13 The Importance of Human Connection in Storytelling

Bobby on storytelling

Background: 30 years in film, always thinking about story structure.
Drama is about “what you’re both keeping back and what you’re waiting to surprise your audience with.”

Steve Jobs anecdote

Jobs builds suspense with “one more thing.”
On stage, he asks: “Has anyone ever wondered what this small pocket is for?” (the tiny jeans pocket).
Instead of something expected like a coin, he pulls out “the world’s smallest iPod and people flip out.”

Why it works: audience knows the pocket’s size → no need to explain iPod’s dimensions.

Structure: setup → familiar norm → question → twist → payoff.

Bobby’s takeaway: “That’s really good storytelling, man. It’s really good storytelling.”

“People call him a salesperson. Like he’s a great salesman. He’s a great storyteller. If you can tell a good story, you’re pulling people in. That’s the key.”

Robin on storytelling & AI

His work is making commercials and mini-docs for startups.
Says video itself doesn’t matter as much as impact: “What I care about is changing human behavior and changing human emotion.”
Believes the value of human storytelling is timeless: “The value of sitting at Homer’s feet and listening to him recite the Iliad is never going to go away.”

Bobby on storytelling & art

Storytelling = fundamental way to convey and connect.

Sees it like art: “Art is a way to express your opinion and how you process the world around you in a manner that hopefully other people can experience and relate to.”

Calls art his “oldest friend, who I’ve probably treated the worst… neglected, starved, and then expect it to show up and perform.”

Believes everyone can create: “Art is not a zero-sum game… art is ultimately subjective because art is an opinion about how you see the world.”

Goal of art/storytelling: help others “find some relationship to the world around them through it.”

06:01 Art as a Form of Expression

Robin’s setup

Grew up between an artist mother and entrepreneur father – “perfect intersection” of art + business.
Distinguishes museum art (“old, on walls”) from art that’s “around us all the time.”

Points out modern communicators (Musk, Trump) as powerful storytellers/branders – even if you disagree with the content, “that is great art in the form of good communication.”

Asks: why do we separate “high” art (Iliad, museums) from everyday, cultural storytelling (Pixar, branding)?

Art is everywhere

Bobby uses the car-buying analogy to explain awareness:

“You’re looking for a midsize pickup and suddenly you see them everywhere. They didn’t just appear. You’re just paying attention.”
Art works the same way – once you start noticing, you realize it’s all around you.

Lesson from a design teacher:

“If it wasn’t dug up or grown, it’s designed.”

Everything man-made carries intention – and therefore, art.

Pushes back on the museum-only view of art:

“Saying art is only in museums is like saying there are only cars at dealerships. There are cars everywhere. There’s art everywhere.”

Examples of art woven into daily life:

Clothing, headphones, glasses
Desks, chairs, pottery, textiles
Buildings, skylines, sidewalk prints
Freeway dividers, lamps
Even tools: “Go get a hammer. The handle’s probably painted a color. It may be a penny’s worth of art, but it’s art, man.”

Definition of art:

“All these things are working with that balance between functionality and making you feel something.”

Even branding choices – a color, a shape – are designed to evoke feeling.

Perspective shift:

Once you adjust your lens, “there’s a lot of art out there. It’s really, really amazing.”

12:04 The Relationship Between Artist and Art

Bobby compares practice to a relationship:

“It’s like the people that love you the most, sometimes you treat the worst.”

Practice is like a loyal friend or character always waiting:
Wants to be fed, but often ignored.
Always ready to show up again.

“It’s like that little character that shows up and is always there to help you out.”

Robin asks if practice is a character on his shoulder.

Bobby: “It probably is… but I love it. If there’s a napkin, I’ll doodle.”

Art as a shared childhood language:

Everyone starts out drawing: “Have you ever met an adult who didn’t draw as a kid? Everyone says yes.”
Drawing is how children interpret the world.
Family encouragement made “the artist” part of his identity.

Becoming a writer:

Took a UC Berkeley Extension class called “Finishing the Novel.”

Professor’s advice: “You’re all taking classes. None of you are professionals. Go form a writers’ group.”

Writers’ group provided accountability → led to a first draft.

Draft → literary agent → graphic novel → published book.

“Flash forward all these years later and I have a book that comes out… I guess I’m an author.”

Lessons on growth and identity:

Identity comes from practice and persistence, not instant recognition.
Progress isn’t linear: “The road is not a straight line.”
Common trap: believing “I should have been there already.”

Bobby reframes time:

“You can often have what you want, or you can have something when you want it. But you can rarely have what you want when you want it.”

Letting go of rigid timelines gives a better chance of arriving.

18:01 The Process of Creating a Graphic Novel

Robin asks why this story, why now, and why as a debut novel.

Bobby admits he had played with different story ideas before.
Thought to himself: “If I only have one chance to do this, what story do I want to tell?”

Origin spark: a daydream while driving.

“What if an animal just jumped out in front of me?”
What if it leapt into the air and flew away?
“What if that animal was a reindeer?”

Question: what would a reindeer be doing here?

That “what if” became the seed of the story.

Bobby folded parts of himself into the idea.

Loves holiday stories and movies → wanted to write one.

Describes storytelling as crafting from a “pantry of experiences.”

Not autobiography or documentary, but infused with pieces of his life.

Details of the novel:

Protagonist is an 11-year-old girl in 1955 Colorado.
Bobby: “I was neither alive in 1955, nor have I ever been an 11-year-old girl, nor have I found a flying reindeer — spoiler alert.”
Still, fragments of his own experiences and emotions shape the narrative.

Goal as an author:

To blend reality with imagination.
To create something unique, fresh, and able to stand on its own.

20:58 Visual Storytelling vs. Written Storytelling

Robin asks about storytelling: what’s similar between Steve Jobs’ two-minute iPod reveal and a 350-page graphic novel?

Bobby: scale is different, but fundamentals are the same.
Both are about introducing an idea, building drama, and pulling the audience in.
Events and books both follow arcs: setup → build → climax → resolution.

“He doesn’t start the event with that, he ends the event with that. That’s the climax.”

Storytelling has shape across mediums:

Characters introduced → audience grows to care → surprises and turns → payoffs.

Example: Steve Jobs’ coin pocket reveal → set up, then payoff.

In a book, the payoff may come 100 pages later instead of 30 seconds.

Analogy: whether you play 30 seconds of a song or an hour-long concert, you’re still using the same fundamentals of music.

Robin shifts to Bobby’s background as a visual storyteller.

As an animator of 30 years, Bobby is comfortable with visual stories, while Robin is more comfortable with written ones.

Robin compares Bobby’s graphic novel to The Bone Compendium (which he revisits often) and contrasts with Heinlein novels he might attempt.

Robin: making comics doesn’t have to be like “my mother’s artwork she slaved over for years.” It can be like newspaper comics compiled into story.

Asks Bobby for advice on where to begin if he wanted to try sketching a visual story.

Bobby’s advice:

Many people don’t think visual storytelling is possible for them.

Shares personal story:

On his first post-college date with his wife (now 25 years married), he said he wanted to write a book.

It took him 25 years to actually write one.
Never thought of doing a graphic novel because his drawing style didn’t look like Marvel or X-Men.

Even as a professional artist, felt imposter syndrome

Realization: it’s not about imitating Spider-Man — it’s about drawing in your own style.

Art is your opinion expressed visually.

Stick figures can work if they serve the story.

Doesn’t have to be polished airbrushed paintings.

How his graphic novel came about:

Originally wrote the story as a regular novel.
Sent to publishers with just a few illustrations.
All said no — except one, who said: “I love the illustrations. Would you consider making this a graphic novel?”
Bobby: “All right.” Treated it as an invitation. Decided to draw in his own style.

Practical process:

Took all the dialogue he had already written.
Turned descriptions into drawings.
Book was already written in close third person, without inner thoughts → made translation easier.

First pass: dialogue in speech bubbles, description drawn.

Realized: “I guess this works.”

Takeaway:

You don’t have to start by drawing an entire book from scratch.
You can begin with writing, then translate description into visuals.

28:10 Resilience in the Face of Rejection

Robin points out the sheer amount of work Bobby went through: writing a book, getting rejected repeatedly, reinventing it with illustrations, then turning it into a graphic novel only to be rejected again.

Robin: “It’s almost the literal definition of courage… getting back up and trying again.”
Notes that outsiders might think: “30-year Pixar animator, easy for you.” But the reality was rejection after rejection.

Asks: how do you come back? What is your relationship with practice that allows you to face no 50 times and keep going?

Bobby on optimism and imagination:

“I’m lucky that I happen to be what myself and other people probably call an optimistic person.”
Describes himself as “an optimist with a vivid imagination” → always assuming, “Yeah, we’ll figure this out.”
Loves being middle-aged because experience gives perspective: you’ve seen enough to know you can recover.

The arc of a career/life:

Beginning stage: fearless.

“I can do anything because I cannot die.”
Willing to leap into anything: start a company, go broke, jump off a cliff → “We’ll figure it out.”

Middle stage: awareness of consequences.

Relationships, responsibilities, failures and successes → “I don’t know if I should do anything.”
Weight of awareness can freeze you.

Later stage: resilience.

“I’m still here, I figured it out.”
Confidence comes not from avoiding mistakes but from knowing: “I can recover from anything.”

Personal examples:

Bobby’s two kids are both in college. He reflects on their application process: multiple schools, multiple options.

His own experience was the opposite:

Applied to only one school (CalArts).
Barely got in.
Supported by his single mother, who let him pursue art school.
That early challenge taught him persistence and how to “figure it out.”

The practice of persistence:

Life and career filled with moments of trial and error.
“That didn’t work. Okay, maybe this. Well, that didn’t work. Maybe this.”
Sometimes progress feels like moving backwards before going forward again.

Analogy: like a Roomba.

Hits an obstacle → bounces, changes direction, keeps moving.

“I don’t know that equating myself to a robot vacuum is the best thing, but it eventually gets the whole job done.”

33:33 Storytelling Frameworks and Structures

Bobby on classical story structure in his book:

Book follows a traditional arc: opening, inciting incident (

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