Last Friday, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth announced that he was breaking the Pentagon’s contract with the A.I. company Anthropic and would declare the company a supply chain risk — a designation for companies so dangerous, they can’t exist anywhere in the U.S. military supply chain. What makes this so wild is the military is still using Anthropic’s A.I. system right now. They reportedly used it during the raid to capture Maduro in Venezuela, and are now using it in the war in Iran.
This story raises so many questions: Why does the government think Anthropic is so dangerous? How exactly is the government using A.I. right now? How do they want to use A.I.? And who should ultimately control this powerful and uncertain technology?
Dean Ball is a senior fellow at the Foundation for American Innovation and the author of the newsletter Hyperdimensional. He served as a senior policy adviser on A.I. for the Trump White House and was the primary staff writer of their A.I. action plan. But he’s been furious at the Trump administration for how it has been handling the conflict with Anthropic. So I wanted to have him on the show to explain why.
Mentioned:
“<a href="https://www.hyperdimensional.co/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Hyperdimensional</a>" by Dean Ball
“<a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/04/12/opinion/ezra-klein-podcast-dario-amodei.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">What if Dario Amodei Is Right About A.I.?</a>” The Ezra Klein Show
“<a href="https://stratechery.com/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Stratechery</a>” by Ben Thompson
Book Recommendations:
<a href="https://about.libertyfund.org/books/rationalism-in-politics-and-other-essays/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Rationalism in Politics and Other Essays</a> by Michael Oakeshott
<a href="https://global.oup.com/academic/product/empire-of-liberty-9780195039146?cc=us&lang=en&" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Empire Of Liberty</a> by Gordon S. Wood
<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/59062/roll-jordan-roll-by-eugene-d-genovese/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Roll, Jordan, Roll</a> by Eugene D. Genovese
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find transcripts (posted midday) and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/column/ezra-klein-podcast" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast</a>, and you can find Ezra on Twitter @ezraklein. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs</a>.
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Rollin Hu. Fact-checking by Michelle Harris with Kate Sinclair and Mary Marge Locker. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck, Jack McCordick, Marina King and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Kristina Samulewski and Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Audio is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher">https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher</a>. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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