On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum opens with reflections on President Donald Trump’s repeated delays to enforce the congressionally mandated TikTok ban. He explains how Trump’s pattern of ignoring laws, whether by inventing tariffs, bypassing Congress on spending, or granting de facto immunity to allies, erodes the foundation of our constitutional government. 
Then David is joined by the historian Kyle Harper, author of Plagues Upon the Earth, for a conversation about infectious disease and the politics of vaccination. They trace humanity’s long struggle against killers such as smallpox, polio, and measles, and the scientific breakthroughs that transformed life expectancy. Harper explains how mistrust, misinformation, and polarization have fueled a resurgence of measles in the 2020s, even after it had been eradicated in the United States. Kyle and David also discuss what Rome can teach us about living with plagues, why public trust is essential to public health, and why the next pandemic will find us less prepared than we were for COVID-19.
Finally, David ends the podcast with a discussion of Carl Schmitt’s The Concept of the Political. He examines how Schmitt’s claim that politics is defined by the division of friend and enemy is influencing modern authoritarian thinkers in America.
Get more from your favorite Atlantic voices when you subscribe. You’ll enjoy unlimited access to Pulitzer-winning journalism, from clear-eyed analysis and insight on breaking news to fascinating explorations of our world. Atlantic subscribers also get access to exclusive subscriber audio in Apple Podcasts. Subscribe today at <a href="https://theatlantic.com/listener">TheAtlantic.com/Listener</a>. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://megaphone.fm/adchoices">megaphone.fm/adchoices</a>

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