Five years ago, at the urging of federal officials, much of the United States locked down to stop the spread of Covid. Over time, the action polarized the country and changed the relationship between many Americans and their government.Michael Barbaro speaks to Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee, two prominent political scientists who dispute the effectiveness of the lockdowns, to find out what they think will be required when the next pandemic strikes.Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts" target="_blank">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.Guest: Stephen Macedo and Frances Lee, authors of In Covid’s Wake: How Our Politics Failed UsBackground reading: <ul><li>As the coronavirus spread, researchers worldwide <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/03/14/health/covid-pandemic-public-health.html" target="_blank">scrambled to find ways to keep people safe</a>. Some efforts were misguided. Others saved millions of lives.</li></ul>For more information on today’s episode, visit <a href="http://nytimes.com/thedaily?smid=pc-thedaily">nytimes.com/thedaily</a>. Transcripts of each episode will be made available by the next workday. Photo: Hilary Swift for The New York Times
Unlock full access to New York Times podcasts and explore everything from politics to pop culture. Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

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