SummaryIn this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast, Anna Geller talks about the integration of code and UI-driven interfaces for data orchestration. Anna defines data orchestration as automating the coordination of workflow nodes that interact with data across various business functions, discussing how it goes beyond ETL and analytics to enable real-time data processing across different internal systems. She explores the challenges of using existing scheduling tools for data-specific workflows, highlighting limitations and anti-patterns, and discusses Kestra's solution, a low-code orchestration platform that combines code-driven flexibility with UI-driven simplicity. Anna delves into Kestra's architectural design, API-first approach, and pluggable infrastructure, and shares insights on balancing UI and code-driven workflows, the challenges of open-core business models, and innovative user applications of Kestra's platform.Announcements<ul><li>Hello and welcome to the Data Engineering Podcast, the show about modern data management</li><li>Data migrations are brutal. They drag on for months—sometimes years—burning through resources and crushing team morale. Datafold's AI-powered Migration Agent changes all that. Their unique combination of AI code translation and automated data validation has helped companies complete migrations up to 10 times faster than manual approaches. And they're so confident in their solution, they'll actually guarantee your timeline in writing. Ready to turn your year-long migration into weeks? Visit <a href="https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold" target="_blank">dataengineeringpodcast.com/datafold</a> today for the details.</li><li>As a listener of the Data Engineering Podcast you clearly care about data and how it affects your organization and the world. For even more perspective on the ways that data impacts everything around us you should listen to Data Citizens® Dialogues, the forward-thinking podcast from the folks at Collibra. You'll get further insights from industry leaders, innovators, and executives in the world's largest companies on the topics that are top of mind for everyone. They address questions around AI governance, data sharing, and working at global scale. In particular I appreciate the ability to hear about the challenges that enterprise scale businesses are tackling in this fast-moving field. While data is shaping our world, Data Citizens Dialogues is shaping the conversation. Subscribe to Data Citizens Dialogues on Apple, Spotify, Youtube, or wherever you get your podcasts.</li><li>Your host is Tobias Macey and today I'm interviewing Anna Geller about incorporating both code and UI driven interfaces for data orchestration</li></ul>Interview<ul><li>Introduction</li><li>How did you get involved in the area of data management?</li><li>Can you start by sharing a definition of what constitutes "data orchestration"?</li><li>There are many orchestration and scheduling systems that exist in other contexts (e.g. CI/CD systems, Kubernetes, etc.). Those are often adapted to data workflows because they already exist in the organizational context. What are the anti-patterns and limitations that approach introduces in data workflows?<ul><li>What are the problems that exist in the opposite direction of using data orchestrators for CI/CD, etc.?</li></ul></li><li>Data orchestrators have been around for decades, with many different generations and opinions about how and by whom they are used. What do you see as the main motivation for UI vs. code-driven workflows?</li><li>What are the benefits of combining code-driven and UI-driven capabilities in a single orchestrator?<ul><li>What constraints does it necessitate to allow for interoperability between those modalities?</li></ul></li><li>Data Orchestrators need to integrate with many external systems. How does Kestra approach building integrations and ensure governance for all their underlying configurations?</li><li>Managing workflows at scale across teams can be challenging in terms of providing structure and visibility of dependencies across workflows and teams. What features does Kestra offer so that all pipelines and teams stay organised?</li><li>What are the most interesting, innovative, or unexpected ways that you have seen Kestra used?</li><li>What are the most interesting, unexpected, or challenging lessons that you have learned while working on Kestra?</li><li>When is Kestra the wrong choice?</li><li>What do you have planned for the future of Kestra?</li></ul>Contact Info<ul><li><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/anna-geller-12a86811a/" target="_blank">LinkedIn</a></li><li><a href="https://annageller.medium.com/" target="_blank">Blog</a></li></ul>Parting Question<ul><li>From your perspective, what is the biggest gap in the tooling or technology for data management today?</li></ul>Closing Announcements<ul><li>Thank you for listening! Don't forget to check out our other shows. <a href="https://www.pythonpodcast.com" target="_blank">Podcast.__init__</a> covers the Python language, its community, and the innovative ways it is being used. The <a href="https://www.aiengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank">AI Engineering Podcast</a> is your guide to the fast-moving world of building AI systems.</li><li>Visit the <a href="https://www.dataengineeringpodcast.com" target="_blank">site</a> to subscribe to the show, sign up for the mailing list, and read the show notes.</li><li>If you've learned something or tried out a project from the show then tell us about it! Email hosts@dataengineeringpodcast.com with your story.</li></ul>Links<ul><li><a href="https://kestra.io/" target="_blank">Kestra</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CI/CD" target="_blank">CI/CD</a></li><li><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finite-state_machine" target="_blank">State Machine</a></li><li><a href="https://aws.amazon.com/lambda/" target="_blank">AWS Lambda</a></li><li><a href="https://github.com/features/actions" target="_blank">GitHub Actions</a></li><li><a href="https://aws.amazon.com/fargate/" target="_blank">ECS Fargate</a></li><li><a href="https://airflow.apache.org/" target="_blank">Airflow</a></li><li><a href="https://kafka.apache.org/" target="_blank">Kafka</a></li><li><a href="https://www.elastic.co/" target="_blank">Elasticsearch</a></li><li><a href="https://airflow.apache.org/docs/apache-airflow/stable/core-concepts/xcoms.html" target="_blank">Airflow XCom</a></li></ul>The intro and outro music is from <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/Love_death_and_a_drunken_monkey/04_-_The_Hug" target="_blank">The Hug</a> by <a href="http://freemusicarchive.org/music/The_Freak_Fandango_Orchestra/" target="_blank">The Freak Fandango Orchestra</a> / <a href="http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/" target="_blank">CC BY-SA</a>In this episode of the Data Engineering Podcast, host Tobias Macy interviews Anna Geller, a data engineer turned product manager, about the integration of code and UI-driven interfaces for data orchestration. Anna shares her journey from working with data during an internship at KPMG to her current role as a product lead at Kestra. She provides her insights into the concept of data orchestration, emphasizing its broader scope beyond just ETL and analytics, and discusses the challenges and anti-patterns that arise when using existing scheduling systems for data-specific workflows.Anna explains the overlap between CI/CD, scheduling, and orchestration tools, and the limitations that occur when these tools are used for data workflows. She highlights the importance of visibility and governance at scale and the need for a dedicated orchestrator like Kestra. The conversation also delves into the challenges of using data orchestrators for non-data workflows and the benefits of combining code and UI-driven approaches.Anna discusses Kestra's architecture, which supports both JDBC and Kafka backends, and its focus on API-first interactions. She explains how Kestra handles task granularity, inputs, and outputs, and the flexibility provided by its plugin system. The episode also explores Kestra's approach to data as assets, the target audience for Kestra, and how it bridges different workflows across organizational boundaries.The discussion touches on Kestra's open-core model, the challenges of balancing open-source and enterprise features, and the innovative ways Kestra is being applied. Anna shares insights into Kestra's local development experience, the lessons learned in building the product, and the upcoming features and projects that Kestra is excited to explore.

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