Yascha Mounk and George Packer discuss autocracy in literature and real life.
George Packer is an award-winning author and staff writer at The Atlantic. His latest book is <a href="https://us.macmillan.com/books/9780374614720/theemergency/">The Emergency</a>. 
In this week’s conversation, Yascha Mounk and George Packer discuss authoritarianism in fiction, living humanist virtues in morally complex times, and how the Democrats can defeat Donald Trump.
Note: This conversation was recorded on October 21, 2025.

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