What does it mean to be good?It’s a little word that carries a lot of weight for many of us. Be a good girl. Be a good friend. Be a good leader. Do good.Good can sound like praise, but become a cage of expectations and shoulds, a performance that chips away at our authenticity. Good is no longer something we are, but is how others see us. It leads us to people please and keep the peace at all costs. And that’s especially true for women.All too often, when women are in leadership, their goodness is measured by how they make others feel–good, comfortable, understood. All of that matters. But when the measure of leadership becomes how comfortable other people feel around us, we lose something essential.We perform and manage emotions instead of building trust and respect. We seek to be liked and to fit in at the cost of real integrity and effectiveness. And likability is oh-so fleeting.Respect, integrity, and true belonging take time and discomfort to build, but they last.My guest today has written beautifully and bravely about the cost of being good, the truth of belonging, and the courage it takes to lead ourselves and others through discomfort.Elise Loehnen is the New York Times bestselling author of On Our Best Behavior: The Seven Deadly Sins and the Price Women Pay to be Good and the host of the podcast, Pulling the Thread, where she interviews cultural luminaries about the big questions of today, including people like Joy Harjo, John and Julie Gottman, Dr. Gabor Maté, and Esther Perel. In addition to On Our Best Behavior, she is the author of a corresponding workbook—Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness—with coach Courtney Smith (July 2025), and the co-author of True & False Magic, with legendary psychiatrist Phil Stutz. Elise lives in Los Angeles with her husband, Rob, and their sons, Max and Sam.Listen to the full episode to hear:<ul><li>How Elise traced the cultural roots of the “good woman” back to early Christianity and the many additions, erasures, and mistranslations of Biblical stories</li><li>Why we need to pay attention to our envy and how it shows up in relation to other women</li><li>How envy, pride, and greed fuel each other and the ways we stay small and tear other women down</li><li>How social media has heightened the risk of reputational damage and changed how women work and lead, for better and worse</li><li>Why we latch onto ideas of goodness and purity more deeply in times of greater uncertainty</li><li>How current narratives about the “natural” order are ahistorical manipulations that limit what we believe is possible</li></ul>Learn more about Elise Loehnen:<ul><li><a href="http://eliseloehnen.com/">Website</a></li><li><a href="http://eliseloehnen.substack.com/">Pulling the Thread on Substack</a></li><li>Instagram: <a href="https://www.instagram.com/eliseloehnen">@eliseloehnen</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/on-our-best-behavior-the-seven-deadly-sins-and-the-price-women-pay-to-be-good-elise-loehnen/6b17ed0599901f5f">On Our Best Behavior: The Price Women Pay to Be Good</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/choosing-wholeness-over-goodness-a-process-for-reclaiming-your-full-self-courtney-smith/85566e67075a7c03">Choosing Wholeness Over Goodness: A Process for Reclaiming Your Full Self</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/true-and-false-magic-a-tools-workbook-elise-loehnen/75a889575fe29815">True and False Magic: A Tools Workbook</a></li></ul>Learn more about Rebecca:<ul><li><a href="https://www.rebeccaching.com/">rebeccaching.com</a></li><li><a href="https://www.rebeccaching.com/work-with-me">Work With Rebecca</a></li><li><a href="https://rebeccaching.substack.com/">The Unburdened Leader on Substack</a></li><li><a href="https://view.flodesk.com/pages/5ececca2ff83f400265bbaab">Sign up for the weekly Unburdened Leader Email</a></li></ul>Resources:<ul><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/braving-the-wilderness-the-quest-for-true-belonging-and-the-courage-to-stand-alone-bren-brown/a695fa229d1642c7">Braving the Wilderness: The Quest for True Belonging and the Courage to Stand Alone, Brené Brown</a></li><li><a href="https://rebeccaching.com/2025/01/31/ep-123-befriending-your-nervous-system-building-capacity-for-regulation-with-deb-dana/">EP 123: Befriending Your Nervous System: Building Capacity for Regulation with Deb Dana</a></li><li><a href="https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/p/the-intrinsic-order-that-emerges">The Intrinsic Order that Emerges from Within Chaos (Elinor Dickson, PhD)</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/dancing-in-the-flames-the-dark-goddess-in-the-transformation-of-consciousness-elinor-dickson/bc106a5a5386cb22">Dancing in the Flames: The Dark Goddess in the Transformation of Consciousness, Elinor Dickson and Marion Woodman </a></li><li><a href="https://rebeccaching.com/2023/09/29/ep-88-right-use-of-power-navigating-leadership-dynamics-with-dr-cedar-barstow/">EP 88: Right-Use-of-Power: Navigating Leadership Dynamics with Dr. Cedar Barstow</a></li><li><a href="https://rebeccaching.com/2025/03/07/ep-125-power-regulation-and-leadership-connecting-to-your-personal-power-with-dr-amanda-aguilera/">EP 125: Power, Regulation, and Leadership: Connecting to Your Personal Power with Dr. Amanda Aguilera</a></li><li><a href="https://eliseloehnen.substack.com/p/the-reprioritization-of-relationship?utm_source=publication-search">The Reprioritization of Relationship (Lori Gottlieb)</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/maybe-you-should-talk-to-someone-a-therapist-her-therapist-and-our-lives-revealed-lori-gottlieb/42d2cebc077aecbd">Maybe You Should Talk To Someone: A Therapist, HER Therapist, and Our Lives Revealed, Lori Gottlieb</a></li><li><a href="https://pod.link/1811878340/episode/NDliNzNlOGEtMGZkNS0xMWYwLTliOTItZGIyYTRjNzViY2Qw">Lessons from Hollywood’s Most Powerful Woman—And How They Can Help You (with Donna Langley) | Aspire with Emma Grede</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/answer-to-job-from-vol-11-of-the-collected-works-of-c-g-jung-c-g-jung/5d370ef6c70718c7">Answer to Job, Carl Jung</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/aion-researches-into-the-phenomenology-of-the-self-dr-c-g-jung-dr/d8003e2fe3e1bf91">Aion: Researches Into the Phenomenology of the Self, Carl Jung</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-science-of-magic-how-the-mind-weaves-the-fabric-of-reality-dean-radin-phd/2f3cdbcfc590fec6">The Science of Magic: How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality, Dean Radin PhD</a></li><li><a href="https://bookshop.org/p/books/mistakes-were-made-but-not-by-me-third-edition-why-we-justify-foolish-beliefs-bad-decisions-and-hurtful-acts-carol-tavris/507560a2efd55431">Mistakes Were Made (but Not By Me): Why We Justify Foolish Beliefs, Bad Decisions, and Hurtful Acts, Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson</a></li><li><a href="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAmt29QykFXnuIqQoEEnEFg">Sigur Rós - YouTube</a></li><li><a href="https://www.youtube.com/@iamjonsi">Jónsi - YouTube</a></li><li><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4770018">Love Island</a></li><li><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4406178/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_8_nm_0_in_0_q_the%2520gild">The Gilded Age</a></li><li><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8879946/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_6_tt_7_nm_1_in_0_q_maiden">Maiden</a></li><li><a href="https://www.imdb.com/title/tt21819228/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0_tt_4_nm_4_in_0_q_stut">Stutz</a></li></ul>

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EP 142: The Hidden Leadership and Mental Health Costs of Performative Goodness with Elise Loehnen

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