This is Alex Heath, your Thursday episode guest host and deputy editor at The Verge. Today, I’m talking to a very special guest: Nick Turley, OpenAI’s head of ChatGPT. 
While Sam Altman is definitely the public face of OpenAI, Nick has been leading ChatGPT’s development since the very beginning, and it’s now the fastest-growing software product of all time with more than 700 million weekly users. So, Nick and I talk about the backlash against OpenAI’s removal of its GPT-4o model, the future of ChatGPT itself, solving hallucinations, and why he thinks it eventually won’t look like a chatbot at all. 

Links: 
<ul>
 <li>ChatGPT won’t remove old models without warning after GPT-5 backlash | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/openai/758537/chatgpt-4o-gpt-5-model-backlash-replacement">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>ChatGPT is bringing back 4o as an option because people missed it | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/news/756980/openai-chatgpt-users-mourn-gpt-5-4o">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>GPT-5 is being released to all ChatGPT users | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/openai/748017/gpt-5-chatgpt-openai-release">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>The 6 biggest changes coming to ChatGPT | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/news/756342/openai-chatgpt-gpt-5-update-biggest-changes">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>ChatGPT has 20 million paying subscribers | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/openai/640894/chatgpt-has-hit-20-million-paid-subscribers">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>Elon Musk says he’s suing Apple for rigging App Store rankings | <a href="https://www.theverge.com/news/757941/elon-musk-xai-apple-lawsuit-app-store">Verge</a>
</li>
 <li>OpenAI’s ChatGPT to hit 700 million weekly users | <a href="https://www.cnbc.com/2025/08/04/openai-chatgpt-700-million-users.html">CNBC</a>
</li>
 <li>Chatbots can go into a delusional spiral. Here’s how it happens | <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/08/08/technology/ai-chatbots-delusions-chatgpt.html">NYT</a>
</li>
 <li>ChatGPT gave instructions for murder, self-mutilation, and devil worship | <a href="https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2025/07/chatgpt-ai-self-mutilation-satanism/683649/">The Atlantic</a>
</li>
 <li>‘I feel like I’m going crazy’: ChatGPT fuels delusional spirals | <a href="https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/i-feel-like-im-going-crazy-chatgpt-fuels-delusional-spirals-ae5a51fc">WSJ</a>
</li>
</ul>
Credits:
Decoder is a production of The Verge and part of the Vox Media Podcast Network.
Our producers are Kate Cox and Nick Statt. This episode was edited by Xander Adams.
The Decoder music is by Breakmaster Cylinder. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit <a href="https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices">podcastchoices.com/adchoices</a>

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