This episode from January 2025 has been un-paywalled for your summer enjoyment...A stock rhetorical trope on the right is to invoke ancient Rome when talking about American decline—often making direct comparisons between the Goth invaders and contemporary immigrants, obsessing over homosexuality and Rome's fall, and more. If their understanding of history isn't very serious, what should we make of these appeals? And are there any "lessons" we should learn from Roman history?There's no better time to take up such matters than while Matt is in Rome, and there was no one better for him to talk with about them than Mike Duncan, the prolific and brilliant history podcaster; he currently hosts the <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/revolutions/id703889772">Revolutions</a> podcast and, especially relevant for the purposes of this conversation, hosted the <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-history-of-rome/id261654474">History of Rome</a> podcast from 2007-2012, a project that led him to write <a href="https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/mike-duncan/the-storm-before-the-storm/9781478999645/">The Storm Before the Storm: The Beginning of the End of the Roman Republic</a> (2017). Matt and Mike discuss the use and abuse of history, how "norms" do and do not matter, the relationship between imperialist foreign policy and domestic politics, the perils of vast income inequality, then and now, and more.Sources:For quotes from conservatives about Roman decline: <a href="https://time.com/archive/6633176/nation-reagan-the-historian/">Reagan</a>, <a href="https://edition.cnn.com/2013/07/31/opinion/avlon-nixon/index.html">Nixon</a>, <a href="https://www.mediamatters.org/pat-buchanan/buchanan-likened-illegal-immigrants-goths-who-ravaged-ancient-rome-foreshadowing-how">Buchanan</a>, <a href="https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/09/07/jd-vance-fascist-roman-imperialist-caesar/?_pml=1">Vance (and Pete Navarro & Michael Anton)</a>Mike Duncan, <a href="https://www.publicaffairsbooks.com/titles/mike-duncan/the-storm-before-the-storm/9781478999645/">The Storm Before the Storm</a>(2017)— <a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/mike-duncan/hero-of-two-worlds/9781541730335/?lens=publicaffairs">Hero of Two Worlds: The Marquis de Lafayette in the Age of Revolution</a> (2021)

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