<a href="https://www.cnas.org/people/caleb-withers" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Caleb Withers</a>, a researcher at the Center for a New American Security, joins Kevin Frazier, the AI Innovation and Law Fellow at the University of Texas School of Law and a Senior Editor at Lawfare, to discuss how frontier models shift the balance in favor of attackers in cyberspace. The two discuss how labs and governments can take steps to address these asymmetries favoring attackers, and the future of cyber warfare driven by AI agents. Jack Mitchell, a student fellow in the AI Innovation and Law Program at the University of Texas School of Law, provided excellent research assistance on this episode.Check out Caleb’s&nbsp;<a href="https://www.cnas.org/publications/reports/tipping-the-scales?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Tipping%20the%20Scales%20September%2023%202025&utm_content=Tipping%20the%20Scales%20September%2023%202025+Preview+CID_1f42ed45c20da6d5279734e1b03159f6&utm_source=Campaign%20Monitor&utm_term=Tipping%20the%20Scales%20Emerging%20AI%20Capabilities%20and%20the%20Cyber%20Offense-Defense%20Balance" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">recent research here</a>. Find Scaling Laws on the <a href="https://www.lawfaremedia.org/podcasts-multimedia/podcast/scaling-laws" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">Lawfare website</a>, and <a href="https://shows.acast.com/arbiters-of-truth" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">subscribe</a> to never miss an episode.To receive ad-free podcasts, become a&nbsp;Lawfare&nbsp;Material Supporter at&nbsp;<a href="http://www.patreon.com/lawfare" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">www.patreon.com/lawfare</a>. You can also support&nbsp;Lawfare&nbsp;by making a one-time donation at&nbsp;<a href="https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute" rel="noopener noreferrer" target="_blank">https://givebutter.com/lawfare-institute</a>.Support this show <a target="_blank" rel="payment" href="http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare">http://supporter.acast.com/lawfare</a>.<hr> Hosted on Acast. See <a style='color:grey;' target='_blank' rel='noopener noreferrer' href='https://acast.com/privacy'>acast.com/privacy</a> for more information.

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Scaling Laws: Caleb Withers on the Cybersecurity Frontier in the Age of AI

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