Intro

[2:05]Mike Schwartz: Federico welcome to the podcast.

Background

Federico Kunze Küllmer: Hey Mike thanks for having me today

Mike Schwartz: Before we dive into Evmos, tell us a little bit about your journey how’d you get here.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: So, I started in computer science and industrial engineering in Chile. I did a semester abroad at UC Berkeley where I joined this student organization called blockchain on Berkeley and that’s where my journey on the blockchain ecosystem but also in the open-source ecosystem started. After I graduated I started working on numerous open source projects like tenement, Tendermint, Cosmos SEK which powers many of the projects you can see out there like Binance, Stara and in the entire Cosmos ecosystem and now of Evmos which is a project I’m building.

Mike Schwartz: Awesome so the topic of today’s podcast is how we can use Daos to perhaps provide an alternate funding mechanism and organizational mechanism for open-source projects but before we get into that topic some of our listeners might not know what a Dao is. Can you help give a baseline sort of definition?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: For sure, Dao stands for decentralized autonomous organization, it’s basically like a cooperative or any association of different accounts that lives on the blockchain or on through got different governance mechanisms are able to decide on certain like outcomes or bolden certain proposals at the Dao house. They also have like a common shared address where they can, for example, pull their accounts and their tokens so they can spend on different initiatives, so you more or less create these sorts of organizations to a certain organization to eventually fund the different public goods and base layer infrastructure that you’re providing through open source.

Is Dao Discord Group With A Crypto Wallet?

Mike Schwartz: One of the founders of a Dao called friends-with-benefits has described the Dao as a Discord group with a crypto wallet. Is that inaccurate?Federico Kunze Küllmer: In some way that’s accurate. In a way that the hit the crypto world is here where the important component where every member of this organization has some shares so to say and some can be long in this organization. So, I would say that’s pretty accurate where every member of the Discord some share in the organization.

Tokens V. Options

Mike Schwartz: In a traditional company, let’s say that most of our listeners are familiar with, you issue stock to team members that stock is normally issued in the form of options, and those options even when exercised are subject normally to a fairly restrictive stockholder agreement. So, in this case it sounds like you’re saying that the sort of members of the team – instead of being issued stock are going to be issued a token specific to this project and how are what are the ways that a token would differ from the traditional options or a corporate equity grant? Federico Kunze Küllmer: The main difference here between a token on a chair on a company is the immediate access to the liquidity pool. When you have options for a company that is not publicly listed or is now currently raising a fund like a funding round it’s really hard to get liquidity for those options once they’re exercised.So with tokens you actually have the opposite where when your tokens are vested can start selling them in the open market. I would say that’s the main difference on top of the tokens can also have certain behavior like for example you can create a tokens that are vested over certain period of time or like some tokens that are locked for like one year like trying to simulate like the one year clip that usually have with options and so on and so forth so it’s actually trying to replicate the same behavior that you have right now with options but on a decentralized way and actually having those tokens be liquid.

Mike Schwartz: Ff you get tokens in a dao, these tokens aren’t necessarily going to be listed on a public exchange, so how exactly would owners of the project tokens get liquidity?

Token Liquidity

Federico Kunze Küllmer: So for example either you issue these tokens individually to each of the members of the team so that they can like have different vesting schemes or vesting schedules so we’ve up like an individual joins a company or, like our organization at a given time you can issue these vesting schedules over time that is publicly available on the blockchain and you can see the account that says the tokens are being vested over like four years or one year and then you can also like create these law bot for each of the tokens that’s when you like each individually to each member and you can also create as you mentioned. Like a know that is covered in person turn certain rules where all the shareholders vote to distribute the proceeds or these tokens that the Dao account controls to the different members according to like the different shares they have so that’s like the two ways that you can fund this as either like issue or vesting schedule individually or they took its individually or the other option is like these common worldwide where you create a different ballots of proposals where which are voted by each of the members.

Mike Schwartz: Maybe I’m not understanding. If I go to pay rent or buy milk you know how do I sell my project token into something that’s liquid like Ethereum or Bitcoin?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: You can do that by issuing the tokens that are native from the certain project on usually they were publicly traded on decentralized exchanges or centralized exchangers like Coinbase, Irvana, etc., so you can like actually swap the token so you’re having if they’re listed, and thus bring in some liquidity so that you can trade the token against like another known crypto currency like Bitcoin or EthereumMike Schwartz: So what you’re saying is that you could sort of build into these problem sorry project tokens an automatic conversion feature into something that’s liquidity?Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah, usually the project doesn’t need to be necessarily the one that is providing these like exchange on decentralized way but usually rely on other projects that are fully interoperable. If you’re building a specific application your application can connect to another smart contract that provides this functionality for another digital asset like Bitcoin are Ethereum and then you can use that and trade them to FIAT, for example.

Mike Schwartz: I see so you’re saying that there’s already a generalized token so you don’t issue a specific token for your project. Maybe you use a platform that gives you a token that already has the properties. What are some of the platforms that are out there that could do this just maybe a couple of examples?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: On Ethereum, the most notable ones are probably Uniswap. You also can find some ofthe others that are targeting other types but yeah like the main one is definitely Uniswap.I would say on Ethereum, on Cosmos you can find for example Osmosis which is another platform that supports this.

How To Define The Governance

Mike Schwartz: You mentioned that in a Dao you can implement different rules depending upon the specific you know goals of your project. I think of that as the governance of the project it seems to me like it’ssomewhat challenging to set up the governance of the project. Where do you start that process and you know what wall there’s governance Frameworks that exist for Discord group participation are there templates out there or play books for open-source projects and it seems like sort of a difficult problem and where do you start and how do you define these rules? Federico Kunze Küllmer: This is a great question that in general where you can find the different governance protocols that are used in these different Dao’s so you can have different types of votes, you can have different type of proposals that you can submit. One is for example you can signal certain changes to your community.Like signal certain changes a when I introduced to your community or how strongly do your community feels about certain topic and those are like just for example do you support us. By doing this, it is actually not caring weighed on blockchain itself. But, for example you can also build some type of proposals that are voted on by every member you can use to distribute the tokens from these Dao or from other community allocated tokens in order to fund public goods like open source or other contributions from other external contributors, which has already for example like my company was funded through these sorts of community allocated grants through governance mechanisms. So they’re like multiple types of proposals that the community can vote already and you can find them on Cosmos Blockchain consistent were in and on Ethereum there already some smart contracts that supports this functionality as well for Daos.

Mike Schwartz: So but digging into it a little more specifically when you define the governance are we talking about smart contracts are we talking about legal documents are we talking about English explanation of what the Daos are via smart contracts, explanation of like what the rules are for this data or all of the above.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: It’s usually in the set of code and so like it’s a smart contract you would say.And then you also find another sort of like blockchains that are that also support governance and the code itself so for example you would submit a transaction with this proposal saying I want to fund this team to execute on like four different Milestones over one year and then this proposal gets voted by the entire community and once the proposal passes the automatically because it’s on the blockchain, governance logic is on the blockchain it automatically funds the team that was allocated the grant for and to complete on these different milestones so you allocate it automatically so to say when you when the proposal passes.

Allocating Tokens To The Team

Mike Schwartz: It sounds like you’re saying that the measure of work that we’re going to compensate.In the smart contracts for is a milestone but when I look at an open-source ecosystem what I see is thatyou know people tend to think about the developers, but we also have code reviewers and people who do Q&A and write documentation and you know Kubernetes Helm charts and you know triage issues and do Outreach soyou know I collectively call all of these contributors like the open-source creators, if you’re going to do one big grant for a let’s say for a milestone, how do you decide who gets what and how do you make it fair. Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah this is this is a great topic that is I think very challenging because like there’s always someone that needs to be like continuously monitoring the milestones and whatnot and then like this also like visibility of this different grant programs. Some of these open source creators as you mentioned like never maybe never heard of he’s way of funding there 30 development usually there’s like sometimes there could be like one single developer that is creating one single library that is like the backbone of these other different projects usually right now when it’s how it’s being implemented there is these like receipts so instead of distributing the funds directly to the grant recipient is distributed by a committee to two external parties that are reviewing the milestones that get approved and then you also have one member of the team that is receiving the grant so, so for example like two out of three of these members of the community can like distribute the funds so it’s like more of like a reputation based where like these other members of the committee send the tokens to the grant recipient.

Revenue Sharing With Developers

Mike Schwartz: You mention there is a committee that decides how to compensate the team members I know I’ve heard of some other Dows that use something like let’s say how many Discord messages you post equates to how many tokens you receive as compensation or perhaps how many GitHub issues you complete or how many hours you work. So is there any way instead of using a committee that you can build some other more intrinsically valuable mechanism to track the contribution of the participant. Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah, so for example one way that we’ve dealt with this problem is by creating what we call a decentralized abstract model it’s basically a marketplace where developers publish their applications.And then users by interacting with them how to pay a transaction fee and developers pay like get 50% of these transaction fee for every transaction so in the long term it’s creating a sustainable funding mechanism for them or like your application is more popular and it’s used by more users they will pay 50% of those fees to your development team and that’s how we’re trying to get all these projects funded. It’s by actually having like a way for them to get the proceeds from the users that are interacting with the blockchain.

Initial Funding

Mike Schwartz: That’s interesting because you answered my question in a different way than I anticipated but which brings me into an area that I was going which is of course everyone wants to get paid you know I think of that as the left side of the equation, developers or other creators or community members getting paid tokens but on the right side of the equation we need to actually have people giving money you know whether that’s Fiat or crypto or something the value has to flow into this ecosystem so the model that you mentioned is interesting where you’re saying that perhaps the people who pay for the code a portion of that code goes to the creators in the community and by the way I think you still have the problem of how to split that value between these very different creators but tell me where maybe let’s go in that direction and say besides this model you thought of what are some of the other models why would companies or people want to fund Adele in the traditional corporate startup world we find Angel Investors or Venture capitalists or strategic partners who put money into our company when we’re starting at Dao what’s the equivalent of that.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: I think it’s all changing the model from value capture to Value creation a lot of these open-source creators actually need funding to finance the engineers and the day-to-day operations of the project. The main thing that you can do that is by creating these sorts of Daos and fund these public goods or say sorry yeah that’s why you can find these public goods and Daos to fund these like open-source contributors.

Mike Schwartz: So before I can sell my product I have to build it it’s hard writing software you know that and sometimes it takes longer than we think to write this and so bootstrap model where we’re directing funds from you know from the output of the software back to developers is great but only after the product is done and shipped and people are paying for it because it’s valuable but what about before that or how many how do you get it started I guess

Federico Kunze Küllmer: We for example our company Ggot funded through this mechanism we didn’t have any investors prior investors before we created our project, so we are requested through our governance proposal to the community of another blockchain which is the cosmos hub we requested funding to basically fund our entire team for a year to help us like bootstrap all the necessary funding to create a company to hire engineers to basically ship the code that we were meant to deliverwith this proposal.

Mike Schwartz: Was this a one-off where there was something very specific to Cosmos Hub or is there a playbook here for other open-source projects how is that playbook differ.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah so the in this case was something like specific to the ecosystem itself because our project was going to attract a lot of developers from the Ethereum ecosystem that already knew how to build smart contracts but if you try to extend this to a more General case not necessarily funding blockchains or decentralized applications you can also find different dolls that can provide this funding in exchange for I don’t know like shares because like sometimes the main struggle right now of all these projects open source project is actually how to get funding some of them don’t necessarily have a business model but they’re providing this utility that serves as that is as I mentioned before it’s like the base layer so many other projects rely on. I think that through those you can actually create a lot of funding opportunities for all these different open-source projects that can have like a potential impact not only in blockchain ecosystem,

Dao Frameworks

Mike Schwartz: So there’s a number of platforms out there for Daos the ones that I’m thinking of are mostly built on the Ethereum blockchain so things like you might have heard of Aragon or Utopia or Syndicate or X Dao or Colony or Dao stack we’re sub down there’s a bunch of these frameworks or platforms for creating a do because to create the technical infrastructure for a Dows for example the voting or the treasury function takes quite a bit of work and knowledge about how to build smart contracts and had a how to build this infrastructure tell us a little bit about how you build Evmos. Did you use one of these platforms or did you build your own platform? And what are your thought about some of these platforms for open-source projects maybe more quickly create a Dao to incentivize their creators.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: I’m going to reply first of how we build Evmos and we use a framework for building blockchain our project is a blockchain that provides a base layer infrastructure for smart contracts that are fully interoperable with the other ecosystems so we’re expanding on like for example in our case like smartphone tracking ability so the framework that we use is not necessarily meant for Daos but to create your own blockchain and so like for Daos or like these open source funding communities that want to be created through different Daos. I think like Aragon provides like a grade framework for you to like one click deploy of Dao in order to create your community.

Mike Scwartz: it sounds like you’re saying that using a framework is a good idea but you didn’t go that direction because your blockchain experts is that the fair reading?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah exactly we’ve been working on blockchain for the past five years or so. But if other communities that are maybe not as familiar with blockchain one to create this the way to go is using one of these Frameworks to build different decentralized autonomous organizations or Daos that provide different options for you like different voting rights different threshold for voting or how much Quorum do you need to get your different proposals that you have within your Dao different building types and proposal types you can even have different thresholds so to say to send funds from the from the Dao how to other wallets and to fund the development. So yeah I think these are very flexible these new Dao tools are very flexible for you to upgrade your own value proposition.

Evolving The Governance

Mike Schwartz: So we’re in early days of Daos and it seems like even if the project decides to use this approach, how do you make your Dao flexible enough, or do you maybe give it like an end life and say well this is what we’re going to do for a year and then maybe we’ll start a new one based on that experience what’s your advice on as this technology adapts and we’re learning so much how do you do something today, and not totally regret it like in a couple of months that you should have done this thing or that thing.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: The beauty of these tools is that actually you can like add more functionality as you go I think they’re very flexible in terms of like oh you miss configure something and you or you going to do you want to add new functionality and these tools allow you to do so.

Mike Scwartz: Great but there’s Tools and Rules and when you set up the governance for the project you’re setting the rules for the for your ecosystem. Did you change the goalposts your team might not be so happy.So what do you what are the strategies for sort of on the governance side for acknowledging that things are changing and you might need to make changes. Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah I think like involving your community that is part of the Dao is the first step because like trying to push for these changes in a unilateral is more complicated in the long run because you these things like value extracting then value creation yeah then creating value for the entire community.So I think like involving your community members is the first step to try to do so and try to get feedback from them and sort of like, how do you feel like if you feel strongly about a certain rule to be implemented or completely Crossing out an existing rule that can be eventually updated or even deleted from your, say constitution of the of this Dao involving the community on like what decisions you should take and how strongly they feel about and I think it’s like the first step that you need to take.

Seasons

Mike Schwartz: In “Friends with Benefits”, I heard them talking about Seasons: season 1, season 2, so does it make sense to sort of like have a contract with your community that says okay these rules are temporarily fixed and we will revisit them at a certain point.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: I think of Seasons more of like periods in different governments.I’m that we have today so like you have you have the present that is only for like one period or one season in this case and then you have like, you can go for re-election, or you can in this case if we were trying tocompare this with a season of these Dao is like oh do we want to extend these existing rules for another period and then releasing at the end of the period or do we want to change and completely or do you want to change a few of them I think it makes sense to have a certain period where you say like okay we’re going to take a step back and revisit like all the things that we made during this period see how we can improve them over time if we made any mistakes how we can compensate for them and like try to release it all the changes that need to be implemented for our community to be happy engaged and incentivized in the long run.

Are Companies Afraid Of Blockchain?

Mike Schwartz: I was just at a conference and I heard somebody say that companies traditionally companies let’s say are still afraid of blockchain you know they might say that they’re interested they want to research but ultimately they’re afraid of blockchain but have you seen any evidence from companies or do you think it’s fair to say that companies are still terrified or just don’t understand this whole space? Federico Kunze Küllmer: I think that like expanding this to companies as well as also very beneficial for the entire ecosystem of open-source like using blockchain to like us and an alternative source of funding for the companies that already provide regular payments or subscriptions to like these foundations to in order to build support. I would say the main challenge here is like once you have enough Builders or enough companies or enough projects like subscribing to these cows provide funding for open-source projects is how do you actually distribute those funds and how then you find how do you prioritize different, like so to say for features that some company won’t might prefer to include for their own benefit and versus others that is also providing thatI think that’s one of the main challenge and for example GitHub is already doing that through like different sponsor teams for some like the higher amount tears usually have prioritized supports and features.And I think that could be built in a dollar for example so that you can have like prioritize support from the open source team to your specific, company and I think if that were to be built and a blockchain that will create like more funding and more I would say openness also for companies to adopt this.

When To Get Legal Help

Mike Schwartz: When we’re just in the crypto world and we’re talking about a crypto wallet and smart contracts we don’t need any lawyers, because this is you know completely unregulated world but when we connect to the real world especially if we’re going to engage companies we’re going to need actually some type of like legal entity perhaps we’re going to need to get the lawyers involved you know I’ve heard finding lawyers who understand this decentralized token-based crypto world is difficult are we making inroads in this areaand at what point do you think that maybe you need to get a lawyer to look at whether your projects use of this new incentive model might need some real world legal guardrails?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: I think the main Safeguard towards says like preventing these sort of like extraction of value from these open source project is creating the right licenses I would say like open source licenses can also with the help of lawyers that understand open source licenses can already create some sort of defense mechanism for you to prevent these cases and I think like there’s already projects in the blockchain ecosystem to have created their own license preventing others from just like extracting the value that they’ve created through is open source code and then like framing them as it was there’s so much. Sort of say they want to still be open source but at same time want some retribution are all the ones so I’m like externals support. So a license says getting a lawyer there on this chance licensing it’s like one of the first things if you’re building an open source project for the Dao day-to-day operations he probably won’t need a lawyer to like work necessarily on on many of the cases because it’s like this smart contract so you can say that for example this smart contractwould govern your rules for your constitution but not necessarily have someone like enforce certain contracts directly with each of the members of the Dao because it decentralized all governed by code.

Evmos Business Launch?

Mike Schwartz: I think this is the longest discussion we’ve had about underlying technology of these podcasts ever so I want to like finish the podcast with talking a little bit about Evmos so you’ve put this Playbook into action and where are you now and how is it going it’s going?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: It is going great. As I mentioned before we got these projects fully funded through the open source community of the Cosmos hub because Evmos to build the base layer infrastructure is fully open source and we build up library that allows other communities or other teams to build smart contract support for their applications so we build this with a community Grant and we finally launched two days ago on Wednesday 27th of April yeah it’s going well, very smooth after having a few hiccups in the past and now like everything is running super smooth and hopefully in the next few months we can focus on smart contact interoperability and of course this will be fully open source for the teams to benefit because like all the other projects in the ecosystem will be able to connect and interact with smart contracts so that you can have previously your Dao to create this sort of different sources of funding was isolated in only a single blockchain by now with the infrastructure that we’re providing that is again open source you’ll be able to connect and interact with other blockchains and other applications out there.

Are Developers Receving Tokens?

Mike Schwartz: The economic model that you described earlier where value is flowing back to developers have developers gotten any tokens yet from adoption?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: The adoption model is basically a Marketplace between developers and users in our launch two days ago we introduced incentives for users that interact with the smart contracts and in their next release which is going to probably be in in two or three weeks from now we’re going to introduce a fee model.That is basically sharing the proceeds from the transaction fees with the developers that is already fully implemented we’re only running on some internal testing QA process and it’s going to hopefully be shipped really soon.

Developer Education

Mike Schwartz: Did you have to educate your team about this model? Did you have any formalized education or they were mostly blockchain gurus and they understood all this right away?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: It’s a complete novel way because it’s never been introduced before in the entire ecosystem are usually the proceeds don’t go to developers even that you are interacting with their applications on their smart contracts their proceeds were usually go into the miners don’t worry are securing securing the blockchain so we had to create an internal specification and internal memo and architecture decision record from an engineering point of view and then like finally created like a blog post meant for the general audience about this token model for how to incentivize developers how to incentivize users through this new model that is completely Innovative in the space.

Details Of Evmos Blog Explaining Model

Mike Schwartz: Would you say that that blog post has enough detail to serve as a real Playbook or template for other open source projects to replicate what you need to do?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: Yeah so if you go to evmos.com blog you can find the blog post about the token model on how these these mechanism words to share the transaction fees and if you go to our documentation under evmos.dev you can also find the technical specification of how to implement this and how this works at a technical level on the different concept it has so that as a as an engineer you can also learn more about like how it works under the hood.

Evmos Governance

Mike Schwartz: Is the governance also defined somewhere where people can say you know what are the rules that they set up for 4f most and maybe I can adopt that for my ecosystem.

Federico Kunze Küllmer: So we share the same rules as the entire Cosmos blockchain ecosystem and you can also find some documentation guides and FAQ is also in our documentation about how governance works how voting and how the boarding procedure works what are the different like governance proposals etc.

Why Cosmos V. Ethereum?

Mike Schwarz: Cosmos versus Ethereum. Why did you choose Cosmos? Federico Kunze Küllmer: So Cosmos first is for fully Sovereign on interoperable ecosystem of applications so instead of having to share the same blockchain space as you find Ethereum, you can sort of like read your smart contracts under they can interact with them but they’re isolated in the same machine on what you want sometimes as us an application developers is to have your own community is to have your own ecosystem but you want that ecosystem to also talk to other blockchains or to other obligations so that you can like connect and create value create different sort of like use cases that were impossible before.So Cosmos allows you to basically create these applications are fully Sovereign in the way in the sense that they have their own voting mechanism for their own Community but they’re at the same time for interoperable with other blockchains in this space.

Cosmos Compromises

[36:57] So a lot of people talk about like the properties of blockchains like decentralize fast and sometimes they’re involved also compromisesyou know when you get one thing you have to give up another of can you talk a little bit about what are the compromises that you make on Cosmos would you sayyeah so the main thing is composability which we solved now with most that we launched two days ago also compressibility stands of like you someone else Builds an applicationon for you you have all the base layer infrastructure and you want to deploy just your application you don’t want to deploy a like a full block.Mike Schwartz: Which you need to build like I don’t know like a business development team you need to build life miners to run on your on your blockchain you also need to create like a marketing team and all that stuff maybe you just want to deploy your application and see if the he’s a other users interact with it you want these application to also interact with other applications?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: I think that’s the main trade off on Cosmos you didn’t have before it was you didn’t have that functionality to deploy applications that were interacting with each other and then the other thing is developer manager thing a lot of developers go to a theorem even though there their transaction fees are higher, and they don’t have fully interpretability Solutions or Sovereign Solutions like Evmos. So like they have like way more developers for example done that you can find them costumes.

Advice For Entrepreneurs

Mike Schwartz: Awesome so this has been a really great conversation I know we’re a little bit over on time that I think it’s such a deep topic before maybe to wrap up, can you just maybe if you have some final advice for open-source founders or entrepreneurs out there what would that be?

Federico Kunze Küllmer: The first thing is to look for different alternatives out there if they’re not super familiar with others with any specific project that is funding this but I think like funding this through a Dao if you are small developer you can easily get like a grant on all these communities to create base layer, infrastructure or applications for libraries that can help these different blockchains and I’m also available on Twitter for you to like DM me and we can talk about your specific needs you can find me on Fe Quincy on Twitter

Mike Schwartz: Federico this has been really fascinating thank you for answering a lot of my very basic questions and being so patient and best of luck with Emma’s and it sounds like you’re doing really great work so thank you again.

Credits

Mike Schwartz: Thank you Magda was super interesting that’s it special thanks to the utmost team for helping us schedule and promote this. Mike Schwartz: Cool graphics from Kamal Bhattacharjee music from broke for free crystal risky and liro severe. Mike Schwartz: Watch your feet for more episodes will probably resume next year I have a list of companies and leaders that I’d like to interview. Mike Schwartz: I wanted to get this one out as soon as possible because the business model is so innovative. Mike Schwartz: Thanks for listening and please reach out to me via the website if you have any ideas for the show.[40:14] Music.

The post Episode 56 – Federico Kunze Küllmer, Co-Founder of Evmos first appeared on Open Source Underdogs.

Podurama

Home

Trending

Personal

Your Podcasts

New Episodes

My Files

Favourite Episodes

Tags (Folders)

Recently Played

Bookmarks

Followed Playlists

Episode 56 – Federico Kunze Küllmer, Co-Founder of Evmos

Open Source Underdogs

AI Chapters

AI Insights

Reviews