<a target="_blank" href="https://www.buzzsprout.com/twilio/text_messages/806363/open_sms">Send us a text</a>Today we welcome Karl Vaters to the podcast. Karl has served in a small church ministry for 40 years, with a handful of pastoral experiences. He is the author of numerous books and hosts a bi-weekly podcast - The Church Lobby: Conversations on Faith & Ministry.  He is the author of <a href='https://www.amazon.com/Sizing-Church-Growth-Science-Obsession/dp/0802424252/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3DOEIMWEVFP0I&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.sbrLQBRjIll7MgeGzly7JQDhVeqKh24Rl4nkj39IjN2KVKTqdq9Cmke3WSl1ApVrR6qyU9O2F_DQkPKLlUUICw.s1KiPOyXU9Jd4tcNY87o8KV2HH5WRKVrJ_1cnyPyxDA&dib_tag=se&keywords=desizing+the+church+by+karl+vaters&qid=1746111888&sprefix=desizing%2Caps%2C123&sr=8-1'>De-Sizing the Church: How the Church Growth Movement Became Science, then an obsession, and what’s next.</a>

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Episode #261 Our Church Growth Obsession with Karl Vaters.

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