We’re in a really strange moment in the foreign policy politics of the Democratic Party. People are looking for an alternative vision — an approach to American power in the world that would feel more moral and just, after the failures of President Biden, and the wrecking ball President Trump has taken to international rules and norms.
The answer many on the left are coming to is powerfully simple: international law. America could just start following the rules that we helped write. Is that possible? Is that enough? What would that even look like?
To talk through these questions, I invited Linda Kinstler on the show. She’s a member of the Society of Fellows at Harvard, a contributing writer at The New York Times Magazine, and the author of “<a href="https://www.hachettebookgroup.com/titles/linda-kinstler/come-to-this-court-and-cry/9781541702615/?lens=publicaffairs" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Come to This Court and Cry: How the Holocaust Ends</a>.” She’s done some incredible writing and reporting on whether what we’re watching is the death of international law. In this conversation, we talk about the Biden administration’s failures to live up to the principles it set for itself, the Trump administration’s campaign to destroy the International Criminal Court and what it would take to reinvigorate international law.
Mentioned:
“Are we witnessing the death of international law?” by Linda Kinstler
“<a href="https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/2026/08/02/michigan-senate-abdul-el-sayed-aipac-israel/91129358007" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Abdul El-Sayed, U.S. Senate candidate, on AIPAC and Israel</a>” by Detroit Free Press Opinion Staff
Book Recommendations:
<a href="https://www.zonebooks.org/books/41-the-divided-city-on-memory-and-forgetting-in-ancient-athens" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">The Divided City</a> by Nicole Loraux
<a href="https://wwnorton.com/books/9781324118190" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Crossing the Red Line</a> by Akbar Shahid Ahmed
<a href="https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/796526/under-water-by-tara-menon/" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer">Under Water</a> by Tara Menon
Thoughts? Guest suggestions? Email us at ezrakleinshow@nytimes.com.
You can find the transcript and more episodes of “The Ezra Klein Show” at nytimes.com/ezra-klein-podcast. Book recommendations from all our guests are listed at https://www.nytimes.com/article/ezra-klein-show-book-recs.html
This episode of “The Ezra Klein Show” was produced by Jack McCordick. Fact-checking by Kelsey Lannin, with Michelle Harris. Our senior engineer is Jeff Geld, with additional mixing by Aman Sahota and Johnny Simon. Our recording engineer is Aman Sahota. Cinematography by Marina King. Video editing by Steph Khoury and Arpita Aneja. Our executive producer is Claire Gordon. The show’s production team also includes Marie Cascione, Annie Galvin, Rollin Hu, Kristin Lin, Emma Kehlbeck and Jan Kobal. Original music by Pat McCusker. Audience strategy by Shannon Busta. The director of New York Times Opinion Shows is Annie-Rose Strasser.
Subscribe today at <a href="http://nytimes.com/podcasts">nytimes.com/podcasts</a> or on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. You can also subscribe via your favorite podcast app here <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher">https://www.nytimes.com/activate-access/audio?source=podcatcher</a>. For more podcasts and narrated articles, download The New York Times app at nytimes.com/app. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See <a href="https://pcm.adswizz.com">pcm.adswizz.com</a> for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

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