Annie Lowrey's new book, The Time Tax, argues that the most regressive levy in American life is the hours each of us must spend on hold, in waiting rooms, and filling out forms a competent state would have pre-filled — roughly fifty a year on average, and far more if you're poor. Tyler spends much of this conversation pressing the opposite case, asking whether that bureaucracy is quietly serving a useful purpose by rationing knee surgeries that don't work, deterring fraud, or screening for immigrants with gumption. So Tyler and Annie hash it out over an hour, covering why TANF and other welfare programs are the worst offenders, the political economy of submerged benefits like the child tax credit, whether the postal service should be zeroed out over ten years the way Denmark did, whether the government should be nudging people out of rural areas, lessons from the COVID unemployment fraud, areas where the time tax is flat instead of regressive, which private sector time taxes are most onerous, whether AI agents will pay these taxes for us within five years, the logic of easy benefits plus randomized harsh audits, the case for less federalism, whether voting should be easier or harder, how the UBI studies changed her priors, where you can find the best moss in the world, her favorite example of Brutalist architecture, tattoos as permanent ephemera, Christianity's role in liberalism and the post-Christian right, how reporting beats tourism, the time tax of friendship, what she'll learn next, and more. Read a <a href= "https://conversationswithtyler.com/episodes/annie-lowrey/">transcript</a> enhanced with helpful links, or watch the <a href= "https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ZDf0bgEXE">full video</a> on YouTube. Recorded September 1st, 2026. Other ways to connect <ul class="dIYekRGT_0ZS9Tag_LeS"> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Follow us on <a href= "https://x.com/cowenconvos">X</a> and <a href= "https://www.instagram.com/cowenconvos/?hl=en">Instagram</a></li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Follow <a href= "https://x.com/tylercowen">Tyler</a> on X</li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Follow <a href= "https://x.com/AnnieLowrey">Annie</a> on X</li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text"><a href= "https://mercatus.tfaforms.net/5060931">Sign up for our newsletter</a></li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Join our <a href= "https://discord.com/invite/JAVWP7vTxt">Discord</a></li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Email us: <a href= "mailto:cowenconvos@mercatus.gmu.edu">cowenconvos@mercatus.gmu.edu</a> </li> <li class= "e-10750-text encore-text-body-medium encore-internal-color-text-subdued _G3k1eIg6LFgvvq0Lxhg" data-encore-id="text">Learn more about Conversations with Tyler and other Mercatus Center podcasts <a href= "https://www.mercatus.org/podcasts">here</a>.</li> </ul> Timestamps: 00:00:00 - Intro 00:00:58 - On taxing our time 00:19:47 - On private-sector time taxes 00:22:57 - On AI eliminating paperwork 00:25:03 - On immigration as a filter 00:28:49 - On reducing fraud 00:33:03 - On federalizing bureaucracy 00:35:12 - On breaking up New York 00:36:25 - On making voting easy 00:38:28 - On updating universal basic income 00:41:29 - On banning exotic pets 00:42:13 - On deserts and moss 00:43:18 - On beautiful brutalism 00:43:50 - On tattoo culture 00:44:38 - On Christianity after Christianity 00:48:29 - On escaping the global monoculture 00:51:42 - On the time tax of friendship 00:54:49 - On what comes next 00:55:43 - Outro

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Annie Lowrey on the Time Tax, Fraud, and Rationing by Paperwork

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